East Coast cities vs. Suburban Sprawl (Phoenix: environment, highrise, work)

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by ScottsdaleAZ5254

Phoenix is a very large city, yet an extremely new city when compared to other metro areas on the east coast. Having lived out east, and visited almost every major city on the east coast, I chuckle at how defensive "easterners" become against Phoenix, in particular Philadelphia. While this 200 plus year old city has much history and culture, and of course a decent skyline, they have had a centuries head start to create their "urban center", well before Phoenix surpased them in population!

No one is defensive.Phoenix is a great area but trust me for 99.9% of the people of the east coast, Phoenix may as well be located next to Guam its just not part of the subconscience of your average east coaster and vice versa Im sure. Somebody took a couple cheap chots at Philly which admittedly has some issues so a few backers tryed to point out some of the better points of Philly thats all. No big deal.

As an easterner, I, as well as many of my peers view Phoenix as what LA was back in 1950. A burgeoning area of immense potential that just looks like its going to develop in all the wrong ways, a souless suburban nightmare of neverending Lottaburger and Walmart.

Madrid is a great template for Phoenix to follow. Forget the skyscrapers, fast food and chain stores and concentrate on uniformity and sound civic design.

Originally Posted by ScottsdaleAZ5254

I can honeslty say, that of the majority of major US cities that I have visited; after Detroit, Philadelphia is the most filfty, run down, depressing metropolis I have ever visited. Despite rumors of a recession, our Economy is Booming, their Economy and poplation is on the decline. Living in Scottsdale, its also hard to beleive that everyone in the Pheonix area makes $30,000/yr! I certainly don't, and I don't think the tens of thousands of my neigbors that drive their exotic cars home from work to their million dollar homes do either. While Phoenix is fueled by over a hundred thousand small businesses, much large industry has increasingly started to migrate to the valley of the sun because of our phenominal growth, our business-friendly environment

The metro of Philadlephia is high end professional east coast not rust belt midwest. The city itself has an outstanding downtown and it has many many affluent neighborhoods but yes overall it has seen better days. The Brookings Institute referred to the city of Philadlephia as Bos-troit, a wild mix of wealth and poverty.

The metro is a different story. Behind NYC,LA,CHI,SF it has the most amount of millionaires of any metro in the country. Not to boast but metro Philadlephia has a more robust economy than metro Phoenix. Higher per capita income, higher housing values,more fortune 500 companies etc etc.

Phoenix has alot going for it but lets not get carried away ScootsdaleAZ

[scottie]

I saw a stat the other day aboutthe 50 fastest growing cities in America. It was something like 30-35 were in the west, 15-20 were in the south, 5-10 were in the midwest and 0 were in the northeast. There is something to think about

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by scottie

I saw a stat the other day aboutthe 50 fastest growing cities in America. It was something like 30-35 were in the west, 15-20 were in the south, 5-10 were in the midwest and 0 were in the northeast. There is something to think about

The Northeast cities had their growth cycle the past 2 centuries when civic planning was exceptional and architectural design was paramount.The norteast cities are maxed out as annexation is simply not an option. Now most of the growth in the northeast is in the surrounding suburbs and its design is substandard much like the sunbelt.


Growth is an amazing attribute to possess but whats important is what your city does with that growth. I d like to see Phoenix start over with emphasis on building a walkable,livable, vibrant downtown. Phoenix needs a soul dont become another sprawling mess like LA,Dallas or Houston. Build a city, rise above the easy route of being a glorified suburb posing as a city. Use the Northeast model and not the LA and sunbelt model fo building your city.

[irwin]

Originally Posted by rainrock

Growth is an amazing attribute to possess but whats important is what your city does with that growth. I d like to see Phoenix start over with emphasis on building a walkable,livable, vibrant downtown. Phoenix needs a soul dont become another sprawling mess like LA,Dallas or Houston. Build a city, rise above the easy route of being a glorified suburb posing as a city. Use the Northeast model and not the LA and sunbelt model fo building your city.

It's a nice thought but it's simply too late for a place like Phoenix. It's WAY too far gone at this point. Even compared to LA, Dallas or Houston, Phoenix is sprawling. At least those cities have some walkable neighborhoods and historic areas.

Really what needs to be done is what is happening in the other sunbelt cities to varying degrees. Walk-ability and density can change if there is a duel effort of building reliable and realistic transportation options AND tailoring city policies to encourage smart growth. LA has been doing this for +20 years and to some success. I am certainly not a very big fan of the place but there are some areas (especially on the west side) that are fairly walkable and dense. What's really lacking there is rail running north-south along the coastal communities; although the buses aren't bad. Northern VA built metro stops and encouraged smart growth and that area (which used all be VERY suburban) is now the model for TOD and smart growth around the world. Dallas has built two rail lines and is in the process of constructing several more. It has fairly decent city policies (although it still encourages sprawl in many respects) and has developed areas like Uptown. Houston has probably had the least amount of success. Part of this is because the metro line was only built a few years ago and part of this is because of the lack of city policies to encourage smart growth (they don't even have zoning - crazy). But even there you see some walkable neighborhoods and density. They are also constructing about 4 four lines which will largely connect the entire inner loop.

Phoenix is way behind other sun belt cities. Much of the reason is because the growth of Phoenix really boomed within the past 30 years. The main driver of the economy out there has been real estate developers who have historically stuck to the stereotypical sprawl, cookie cutter, strip mall style development. It's the main business (and one of the only businesses) in town.

Another reason is because historically the political power has been held by several groups who have shunned density and alternative transit - retirees and ultra conservatives. People may tell you that there are more young people in Phoenix than Philly, but many of those young people are young immigrants (many probably don't even speak English) who are not involved in the political process. The VAST majority probably don't even vote (or can't vote). The real power is still in the hands of the old people. They are the people who keep electing dunderheads like Sheriff Joe. They are the people who fight to prevent education funding which makes Arizona schools some of the worst in the country. And they are the ones that scream and yell about a 4 story building "towering" and destroying the sprawling feel of some cookie cutter neighborhood.

Perhaps this mindset will change. They are building a light rail (although they are only building one line). People complain about traffic out there and the roads really can be deathtraps what with all the car accidents. But when I finally left I had serious doubts. People simply are naive out there. Like most Americans, they are also extremely hard headed. They don't what to change even if everything and everyone tells them it's the only way. Finally, the economy out there at this point is in serious trouble and may be that way for some time to come. Remember, building cookie cutter homes is basically their bread and butter. I doubt the city or the state is going to suddenly start to refocus on smart growth when they are praying for more sprawl to bring them out of the red.

[irwin]

Originally Posted by rainrock

BTW...what's that new tower?

[Highpointer]

Originally Posted by rainrock

Growth is an amazing attribute to possess but whats important is what your city does with that growth. I'd like to see Phoenix start over with emphasis on building a walkable, livable, vibrant downtown. Phoenix needs a soul; don't become another sprawling mess like LA, Dallas or Houston. Build a city, rise above the easy route of being a glorified suburb posing as a city. Use the Northeast model and not the LA and sunbelt model fo building your city.

Why should Phoenix use the "Northeast model" in its city planning and development? I live in the Phoenix area, in part, because I don't like the cities of the Northeast. I have been to cities like New York, Philadelphia, and Boston, and the quality of life in these cities does not appear to be a good as the quality of life of Phoenix. Many people apparently agree with me, because the population of cities like Phoenix is growing a lot faster than the population of comparable cities of the Northeast.

Phoenix should not adopt the "Northeast model," because it is proven that the "Phoenix model" is a far better way to grow and develop a thriving, entreprising city with a high quality of life.

[Patrick754]

It's always amusing to watch the militant urbanists decry the Phoenix sprawl and then post a few pictures of gentrified urban neighborhoods and skyscrapers. In reality the majority of people in places like Philadelphia or Chicago don't live in gentrified neighborhoods or work in a highrise. They live and work amidst the suburban sprawl.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by Patrick754

It's always amusing to watch the militant urbanists decry the Phoenix sprawl and then post a few pictures of gentrified urban neighborhoods and skyscrapers. In reality the majority of people in places like Philadelphia or Chicago don't live in gentrified neighborhoods or work in a highrise. They live and work amidst the suburban sprawl.

You know, I am constantly having arguements with the posters on the Pittsburgh (Sh*tsburgh) forum about how more people actually prefer the suburbs as opposed to the city/urban areas - AT LEAST HERE IN PHOENIX. We have a house south of Pittsburgh also, that is why I post there.

People don't come here looking for the 'big city' because it's common knowlege that it doesn't have one!
Who cares?? If people cared all that much, then Phoenix would have more high rises, it doesn't need them because no one wants to live in them! (Alright to be fair, not "everyone" but most people prefer the suburbs here in Phoenix) I think places like Kierland are going to be much more popular. A place where you can eat, play, shop and live. But not mush everyone on top of each other.

I think people move here and stay BECAUSE it's more suburban. I like visiting the city (I frequent NYC and Miami a lot) but I also enjoy coming back to my suburban home!

[uconn99]

Originally Posted by irwin

BTW...what's that new tower?

The new building is the Comcast Center. It will be 974 feet.

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by Highpointer

Why should Phoenix use the "Northeast model" in its city planning and development? I live in the Phoenix area, in part, because I don't like the cities of the Northeast. I have been to cities like New York, Philadelphia, and Boston, and the quality of life in these cities does not appear to be a good as the quality of life of Phoenix.

Could you define quality of life?


Metropolitan Per Capita Income 2006

St. Louis Fed: Release: Metropolitan Area Per Capita Personal Income

Boston $50,085
New York $48,397
Philadelphia $43,998
Phoenix $33,911

Originally Posted by Highpointer

Many people apparently agree with me, because the population of cities like Phoenix is growing a lot faster than the population of comparable cities of the Northeast.

Phoenix should not adopt the "Northeast model," because it is proven that the "Phoenix model" is a far better way to grow and develop a thriving, entreprising city with a high quality of life.

Dont take this the wrong way but isnt that an incredibly simplistic way of looking at things^