East Coast cities vs. Suburban Sprawl

[Valley Native]

If anybody needs further proof of how the market has changed in FAVOR of urbanization over suburban sprawl in the past couple of years, read today's Business section in the Republic. There is a two page spread on Valley zip codes, their median home prices, and the increase/decrease certain areas have seen in value. It is the outer fringes and newer suburban areas (Anthem, northern Peoria, Surprise, and parts of the far SW & SE Valley) that had the biggest decrease in values.

The more established areas and urbanized locations saw less of a drop in values, if not even slight increases. Besides, gas prices are continuing to be a burden to most of us, and longer commute times are increasingly costly & unattractive to many people. The market is less favorable to outward sprawl, and more favorable to more infill and urbanization. Those who are so strongly opposed to urban lifestyles should really consider moving OUT of the Phoenix area! We don't need all these hicks and naysayers protesting everything anyway.

[no more fun]

Anyone have Phoenix pictures?

Can someone tell me how to post pictures.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by no more fun

Anyone have Phoenix pictures?

Can someone tell me how to post pictures.

I just posted these on the Pittsburgh forum - much to their chagrin...

[fcorrales80]

This is an interesting thread and sorry if some of my spelling is off, but I just got home from the clubs and I was DD and took everyone home!

I would like to comment on a few things that were posted and that give an incorrect "feeling" of the Phoenix area and of Phoenix itself. I am a resident of the Roosevelt Historic District in downtown Phoenix and live in a 1910 brick apartment building that has been renovated along with this entire neighborhood. Many of the houses on my street date back to the early 1900's and therefore, tell of a storied history in Phoenix. I'd like to make some clarifications about what constitutes downtown Phoenix. Historically and as of today, downtown is defined as the area bounded by McDowell Rd. to the north, 7th street to the east, Jackson Street to the South and 7th Ave to the West. The densest and tallest structures downtown are contained in a 90 square block area called Copper Square...Fillmore to the north, 7th ave on the east, Jackson St. to the south and 3rd ave to the West. Copper Square is the area where most of the new highrise construction is concentrated, the other area is in Uptown Phoenix north of McDowell where highrise condos are going to be built.

Copper Square is quickly rising and will soon be home to Phoenix's new tallest building at 510' which makes it just a little taller than half the size of Philly's new tallest. However, there are many reasons for the small size of Phoenix's buildings that will soon change. One is the proximity to Sky Harbor Int'l Airport. Because of the alignment of the runways, downtown Phx south of Van Buren will not be built higher than 510' however, north of Van Buren, 700' buildings are conceivable...the further north along central one moves, the higher the building can be built. There are currently 35 highrises being proposed to the city and one that is a "Trump" financed project that if built will be over 1200ft. But for this to happen, the city council is currently revising many outdated Phoenix city codes that hamper density. Already the city has rewritten codes that restrict the ability for a true downtown to develop. CityScape and the new Sheraton, ASU campus, Central Park East, and Alta Phoenix would not have been built if it were not for action taken by the city to allow for high density. One of these codes currently being abolished is the amount of parking required for a building. In the past CityScape, which will consist of 4 new towers each over 40 stories, would have to have thousands of parking spaces incorporated into its plan for construction to occur. But because of wise decision making, the city no longer requires such large parking requirements for new buildings. This allows developers to spend money on the building and not parking structures and garages.

Second, NIMBYism in Phoenix occurs, but rarely in downtown. NIMBYism has mostly been confined to the Biltmore/Esplanade, Scottsdale areas. In these areas single family homes, midrises, mansions, and low rise buildings inhabit the land. Therefore, these neighborhoods rightly fight highrise structures because these people believe highrise development should be focused in downtown phx and not in dense low-rise areas. These people are right, highrises should be in downtown, not areas that are 5, 10, 15 miles from downtown phoenix. Most Phoenicians welcome new towers downtown...where they belong, but Phoenicians also like the lower built areas that are outside the central Phoenix areas. Therefore, Phoenix is developing with a much more defined urban center. Sprawl is a problem in Phoenix, but mitigation and urban boundaries will be established in this metro region.

Phoenix is currently estimated to have a population of nearly 1.5 million and the metro area is estimated to be inhabited with 4.1 million people. Even though Phoenix does cover 400 square miles, most of this land is park land that Phoenix annexed in order to preserve as open land and park space. Hence, South Moutain Park and Preserve is the largest municipal park in the country...covering nearly 100 square miles. North Moutain Preserve, Piestewa Peak, Papago Park are all areas preserved as open space and parkland containing roughly 100 square miles. Therefore, developed areas of Phoenix only constitute rougly 200 to 250 square miles. Contrary to popular belief, this area is relatively compact and does NOT include Anthem which is many miles north of the Phoenix city limit.

The cost of living and the wages paid in Phoenix. Phoenix Metro areas median household income is $38,000 and for comparison, Phily's is $44,000. However, the median cost of a house in Phoenix is $210,000 and for Phily's is $425,000. Taxes, including income tax is much higher in Phily and Pennsylvania. Therefore, the wages paid in Phoenix are favorable to a better standard or living and afforability. A new ASU, US News and World Reports study found that ASU grad average $46,000 in starting pay, MBA/Master's grads of ASU average first year pay of $89,000. Therefore, the pay is very favorable in the Phoenix Metro region.

I think that Phily has a great downtown and also has many crime problems (murder) and that Phoenix has a downtown underconstruction and lacking many ammenities. Phoenix has its crime problems too, number three for autothefts after L.A./San Diego and Vegas. Seattle was up there aswell...the reason, close to borders...Mexico and Canada. Both are great cities and both have their problems. For Phoenix, we will need to learn to live sustainably and will need to continue building downtown.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

This is an interesting thread and sorry if some of my spelling is off, but I just got home from the clubs and I was DD and took everyone home!

I would like to comment on a few things that were posted and that give an incorrect "feeling" of the Phoenix area and of Phoenix itself. I am a resident of the Roosevelt Historic District in downtown Phoenix and live in a 1910 brick apartment building that has been renovated along with this entire neighborhood. Many of the houses on my street date back to the early 1900's and therefore, tell of a storied history in Phoenix. I'd like to make some clarifications about what constitutes downtown Phoenix. Historically and as of today, downtown is defined as the area bounded by McDowell Rd. to the north, 7th street to the east, Jackson Street to the South and 7th Ave to the West. The densest and tallest structures downtown are contained in a 90 square block area called Copper Square...Fillmore to the north, 7th ave on the east, Jackson St. to the south and 3rd ave to the West. Copper Square is the area where most of the new highrise construction is concentrated, the other area is in Uptown Phoenix north of McDowell where highrise condos are going to be built.

Copper Square is quickly rising and will soon be home to Phoenix's new tallest building at 510' which makes it just a little taller than half the size of Philly's new tallest. However, there are many reasons for the small size of Phoenix's buildings that will soon change. One is the proximity to Sky Harbor Int'l Airport. Because of the alignment of the runways, downtown Phx south of Van Buren will not be built higher than 510' however, north of Van Buren, 700' buildings are conceivable...the further north along central one moves, the higher the building can be built. There are currently 35 highrises being proposed to the city and one that is a "Trump" financed project that if built will be over 1200ft. But for this to happen, the city council is currently revising many outdated Phoenix city codes that hamper density. Already the city has rewritten codes that restrict the ability for a true downtown to develop. CityScape and the new Sheraton, ASU campus, Central Park East, and Alta Phoenix would not have been built if it were not for action taken by the city to allow for high density. One of these codes currently being abolished is the amount of parking required for a building. In the past CityScape, which will consist of 4 new towers each over 40 stories, would have to have thousands of parking spaces incorporated into its plan for construction to occur. But because of wise decision making, the city no longer requires such large parking requirements for new buildings. This allows developers to spend money on the building and not parking structures and garages.

Second, NIMBYism in Phoenix occurs, but rarely in downtown. NIMBYism has mostly been confined to the Biltmore/Esplanade, Scottsdale areas. In these areas single family homes, midrises, mansions, and low rise buildings inhabit the land. Therefore, these neighborhoods rightly fight highrise structures because these people believe highrise development should be focused in downtown phx and not in dense low-rise areas. These people are right, highrises should be in downtown, not areas that are 5, 10, 15 miles from downtown phoenix. Most Phoenicians welcome new towers downtown...where they belong, but Phoenicians also like the lower built areas that are outside the central Phoenix areas. Therefore, Phoenix is developing with a much more defined urban center. Sprawl is a problem in Phoenix, but mitigation and urban boundaries will be established in this metro region.

Phoenix is currently estimated to have a population of nearly 1.5 million and the metro area is estimated to be inhabited with 4.1 million people. Even though Phoenix does cover 400 square miles, most of this land is park land that Phoenix annexed in order to preserve as open land and park space. Hence, South Moutain Park and Preserve is the largest municipal park in the country...covering nearly 100 square miles. North Moutain Preserve, Piestewa Peak, Papago Park are all areas preserved as open space and parkland containing roughly 100 square miles. Therefore, developed areas of Phoenix only constitute rougly 200 to 250 square miles. Contrary to popular belief, this area is relatively compact and does NOT include Anthem which is many miles north of the Phoenix city limit.

The cost of living and the wages paid in Phoenix. Phoenix Metro areas median household income is $38,000 and for comparison, Phily's is $44,000. However, the median cost of a house in Phoenix is $210,000 and for Phily's is $425,000. Taxes, including income tax is much higher in Phily and Pennsylvania. Therefore, the wages paid in Phoenix are favorable to a better standard or living and afforability. A new ASU, US News and World Reports study found that ASU grad average $46,000 in starting pay, MBA/Master's grads of ASU average first year pay of $89,000. Therefore, the pay is very favorable in the Phoenix Metro region.

I think that Phily has a great downtown and also has many crime problems (murder) and that Phoenix has a downtown underconstruction and lacking many ammenities. Phoenix has its crime problems too, number three for autothefts after L.A./San Diego and Vegas. Seattle was up there aswell...the reason, close to borders...Mexico and Canada. Both are great cities and both have their problems. For Phoenix, we will need to learn to live sustainably and will need to continue building downtown.

Suffice to say; no arguments from me