East Coast cities vs. Suburban Sprawl (Phoenix, Tempe: apartment, hotel, trip)

[Plin]

Originally Posted by heatwaveaz

That's a lie. In February 2003, Philadelphia was shut down due to a bad east coast snowstorm on Valentines day weekend. The airport was shut down for 2 days; cab companies were closed down; the train station was closed. I had to live in a hotel for 3 days before I could get out of the city. Old city lost power in certain areas and the streets were not safe. You had to stay inside because people who were trying to venture out just to grab a bite to eat were being mugged. It was a very scary situation. Don't tell me there hasn't been bad weather there in 4 years because I experienced it first hand. They do get bad weather there. It's right off the ocean, to say they don't get snow and ice is crazy.

Well, since I moved here in the summer of 2004, it was before my time. I did say almost four years.

I didn't say that they don't get snow and ice, just that it's not comparable to Boston or the Midwest. Yes, it gets cold, but it's often sunny and cold: you don't have weeks and weeks of grey, freezing cold weather and lasting snow accumulation. Or you might sometimes, but these are not typical descriptions of winters.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by Plin

Well, since I moved here in the summer of 2004, it was before my time. I did say almost four years.

I didn't say that they don't get snow and ice, just that it's not comparable to Boston or the Midwest. Yes, it gets cold, but it's often sunny and cold: you don't have weeks and weeks of grey, freezing cold weather and lasting snow accumulation. Or you might sometimes, but these are not typical descriptions of winters.

Philly isn't "on the ocean" it's on Delaware bay but it does get some moderation from the Atlantic. The winters there have been getting generally worse in the past 30 years tho.


The weather is the least of their worries. The East has lost it's manufacturing and trading base and the cities are decaying except for NY and Boston which are financial centers with long histories of serious arts and culture. They already were destinations.

Most other cities like Baltimore and Philly as well as some in FL have not been able to replace their incomes with real work so they have resorted to Disneyfication projects to turn them into "destinations." Baltimore made much of their "inner Harbor" and it is pretty cool but it's basically a big mall with waterfront views. Instead of incorporating Ft. McHenry, they tried to make history out of some warehouses on the other side of the harbor. It would be a lure to Baltimore's real treasure IF they could get a handle on the crime and poverty that encircle the Harbor area. You have to go thru some real grunge to get to the museums etc. Unless you're a Ravens or Orioles fan, you'll get pretty bored pretty quickly.

Philly too hasn't recovered form the loss of industry and has always suffered for being only 90 minutes from NYC. Philly does have great culture but if that's not your thing, too bad, so sad.
If you are in banking Charlotte is not bad but if you work for Wachovia, they're in the burbs. Yuppies can live in a sorta trendy "Uptown" as they call it if they work for BoA. but if not and you're not really into the suburban family scene either, forget it.

Since we are not ready for the shuffleboard courts, we say the West is the place for the young and the not so young who are still truly active and working.

"Active Seniors" is an oxymoron. Well actually code for "I'm not ready for a wheelchair yet but I no longer care to invest my energies in anything meaningful so I'll do inane activities and talk about my symptoms all day."

[nickluva]

SMH@jessiesma

[pwright1]

I'll take Philly's vibrancy and energy over anything in Arizona. And for someone to say most eastcoast suburbs don't have sidewalks is ridiculous. As far as crime Phoenix isn't exactly paridise in this department either. To each their own I guess.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by pwright1

I'll take Philly's vibrancy and energy over anything in Arizona. And for someone to say most eastcoast suburbs don't have sidewalks is ridiculous. As far as crime Phoenix isn't exactly paridise in this department either. To each their own I guess.

Exactly - to each his own

I'm a Valley Native. Damn near 60 years. Seen a couple of changes over that time.

I clearly remember the Stockyards Restaurant - at a Stockyards. The top of the Westward Ho Hotel - a fantastic restaurant and a heck of a view. When the Luhrs Towers were about as high as you could go. Madison Square Gardens on 7th Street - Friday Night boxing. Encanto Park Lake for fishing and canoeing.

The Drive-in Theatres - we had a few good ones - Cinema Park, Northern - take the pickup and back it in - watching the movie in the bed of the truck - I always fell asleep though -

The Central Dairy - then it became a shopping center - Park Central Mall. Goldwater’s department store - always closed on Sunday -

When there was a vibrant downtown - and like many downtowns, the move to the suburbs caused a tremendous decline but, also like many downtowns, is being revived once again.

They said the horrible heat would stop growth - but someone then developed air conditioning / refrigeration. And grow we did. And grow we will.

[nickluva]

Where do people get the idea that the east coast is dying? Last time I checked New York was the largest city and media capital in the country. Washington is the nations capital and perhaps the most powerful city in the free world. Boston is nowhere near a decaying city. Philly and Baltimore may have some decaying parts and high crime rates in their inner cities but their metro areas are large and have pretty decent job bases. Just look up the wealthiest states in the country 4 of the 5 are east coast states(Md,Jersey,Conn,Mass). Yeah alot of people from the east are moving to the west and the south but it's not like back east is shrinking or anything. Phoenix is a pretty decent place to live but the thread starter is right...it's nothing more than a suburb on steroids just like every other city in the west(except for San Fran)

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by silverbear

These days, the effort to re-urbanize Phoenix is not only about revitalizing the class version of Downtown, but also about creating an extended Downtown that takes in formerly residential areas that were once streetcar suburbs. The Evans-Churchill neighborhood around Portland and Roosevelt Streets, for example, is too far north to be part of the classic downtown area, but it's now being gentrified under a broader definition of Downtown.

If all efforts underway are successful, eventually we'll see a more seamless blending of Downtown, Midtown, and the historic districts between them. More pedestrian-focused development and light rail have the potential to create an extended Downtown more appropriate to a city of 1.5 million and a metro area of 4 million.

The idea of an extended downtown is very interesting, silverbear. The problem is, if you're going to call everything and anything that has either remotely tall buildings, gentrified historic districts, or a rail line "Downtown," then Phoenix still looks woefully bad. If you were to apply the same standard of what counts as an "extended downtown" in Phoenix to say, Denver, then you'd have to call pretty much the entire city of Denver a "Downtown." If you applied that standard to L.A., areas like Century City and Westwood, maybe even other municipalities like Santa Monica-- heck, a good chunk of LA county would be considered the new "downtown." Rather, I'd say downtown is downtown-- and those other areas are secondary city-center neighborhoods.

A common trend I've been noticing in central Phoenix, even in areas just a couple blocks from the true downtown highrises, is one-story 1920s era bungalows, often backing right up to a busy 6 lane arterial (7th street is a good example of this) converted into little restaurants and such. Places like "It's a Wrap," "Coronado Cafe," "Tacos de Juarez," etc. Don't get me wrong... this is great, but one story converted houses with adjacent parking lots, sprawled out along the side of a 6 lane gridded road, do not even remotely add up to a downtown. "Urban" themed businesses are great-- but the biggest criteria of what defines "urban" is population density-- not big "U" Urban-- as in a place calling itself "Urban cuisine," "Urban jewelry," etc. There is no substitute for population density.

The problem for Phoenix is that building high rise buildings anywhere-- even if the market demands it, is like pulling teeth. People will raise a stink about the "historic preservation" of every little 400 sq ft decaying shack, about mountain views being blocked, sunlight being blocked, every conceivable objection you can think of. Half of these projects end up going nowhere. A good example: in Tempe, they were about to build a major hotel on University Dr, where the "Arches" shopping center used to be. They bulldozed all the buildings, except one-- a hot dog stand, and for over an entire year, the whole thing has been a vacant lot, all because of one old troublemaker leasing the building for "The Dog House" refused to get out. Now look, I would have preferred for the old Arches shopping center to be there in the first place. But if they're going to build a high rise hotel, and they've already closed all the businesses and bulldozed the property, just building the thing already! This one hot dog guy, a NIMBY-- or rather, one of those Fanatically Against Relatively Tall Structures that Valley Native always talks about-- has created urban blight in Tempe for over a year now. Who knows if the hotel will ever get built now. Valley Native is absolutely spot on about the challenges that Phoenix faces when it comes to urban development.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by nickluva

SMH@jessiesma

what does that mean? I'm not fluent in forum speak. I hope I didn't offend anyone.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

The idea of an extended downtown is very interesting, silverbear. The problem is, if you're going to call everything and anything that has either remotely tall buildings, gentrified historic districts, or a rail line "Downtown," then Phoenix still looks woefully bad. If you were to apply the same standard of what counts as an "extended downtown" in Phoenix to say, Denver, then you'd have to call pretty much the entire city of Denver a "Downtown." If you applied that standard to L.A., areas like Century City and Westwood, maybe even other municipalities like Santa Monica-- heck, a good chunk of LA county would be considered the new "downtown." Rather, I'd say downtown is downtown-- and those other areas are secondary city-center neighborhoods.
.

Good observations, but I should clarify that I don't think every high-rise or mid-rise cluster should be called "Downtown." Midtown will always be distinct, as will Biltmore and Tempe. Instead, the point I was trying to make is that the classic definition of Downtown Phoenix did not extend much north of Van Buren. Now, it has been extended north to 1-10 because formerly residential areas that had become run down and vacant are now being redeveloped with higher density. ASU's new Downtown campus, for example, is too far north to be part of the original area of Downtown Phoenix. Nevertheless, very few would question that it is located in Downtown as defined today. This trend is helping Downtown grow toward a size more appropriate for a city as large as Phoenix. In my mind, Downtown's boundaries have expanded, but not to the point of being synonymous with the broader phrase "Central Phoenix."

I should add that I don't consider any of this negative. Plenty of cities have secondary high-rise districts outside the traditional boundaries of their downtowns. Phoenix is just in the unique position of needing to grow its true Downtown to catch up with its expanded population. Of course, these finer points of terminology really only matter to a small population that really cares about these issues. Many Phoenicians refer to anything south of Camelback Road as part of "Downtown Phoenix" when in reality they're thinking of Midtown or some other near-Downtown area.

[nickluva]

Jessiesma your whole east coast is dying and the west coast is where it's at for young and people who like to work post was some b.s. Phoenix may have jobs but the majority of them are low paying. DC and Atlanta have just as many jobs as Phoenix with way more to offer for the young crowd. Phoenix is really for the people who are looking for the slower pace of living and people who want sunny weather year round. If your looking for something other than that you will be very disappointed.