East Coast cities vs. Suburban Sprawl (Phoenix, Scottsdale: crime, houses, neighborhoods)

[cevett]

In reference to Phoenix being the 5th largest city and taking over Philadelphia a few years ago: I just have to say that I like Phoenix for numerous reasons and I had a lot of fun living there. But this whole population argument thing going on here makes me laugh because Phoenix covers the largest area of land in the country which is exactly why it hardly resembles a "city". It's actually a rediculously spread out town.

Philadelphia, Chicago, NYC are "cities." You have vibrant downtowns in a real city.. Cities are Urban, not suburban sprawl and anexed land. If you count the square miles around Philly that Phoenix counts as it's own, Philly would absolutely dwarf Phoenix. It's Metro area already does.

Philadelphia has just as many people living in a quarter of the space. It's not a giant suburb, sprawling with identical strip malls and walmarts and franchised restaurants OVER and OVER again. Philadelphia has the 3rd largest downtown in the country and if you went there, you would see that it feels five times bigger than Phoenix becuase of the population density. Not to mention being the birth place of our country and the culture, history and architecture back East is unparalled on the West coast. It's much more like Europe given that's who created those cities.

I am originally from Portland Oregon and even Portland feels like a bigger city than Phoenix. It doesn't count when you annex five hundred plus square miles of land and call it a "city"..

[heatwaveaz]

Originally Posted by cevett

In reference to Phoenix being the 5th largest city and taking over Philadelphia a few years ago: I just have to say that I like Phoenix for numerous reasons and I had a lot of fun living there. But this whole population argument thing going on here makes me laugh because Phoenix covers the largest area of land in the country which is exactly why it hardly resembles a "city". It's actually a rediculously spread out town.

Philadelphia, Chicago, NYC are "cities." You have vibrant downtowns in a real city.. Cities are Urban, not suburban sprawl and anexed land. If you count the square miles around Philly that Phoenix counts as it's own, Philly would absolutely dwarf Phoenix. It's Metro area already does.

Philadelphia has just as many people living in a quarter of the space. It's not a giant suburb, sprawling with identical strip malls and walmarts and franchised restaurants OVER and OVER again. Philadelphia has the 3rd largest downtown in the country and if you went there, you would see that it feels five times bigger than Phoenix becuase of the population density. Not to mention being the birth place of our country and the culture, history and architecture back East is unparalled on the West coast. It's much more like Europe given that's who created those cities.

I am originally from Portland Oregon and even Portland feels like a bigger city than Phoenix. It doesn't count when you annex five hundred plus square miles of land and call it a "city"..

So a city is large by the number of high rises it has...talk about insanity. Is LA small too because it's downtown is small? LA is more desirable than any city on the east coast including NY as evidence by the growth rate and cost of living. So your argument is shot down by that fact. I mean it only happens to be the second biggest city in the country but I'm sure you will argue it feels smaller than Philadelphia too. High rises don't make a city by any means. If Phoenix took all the offices and corporations it has spread out throught its suburbs and concentrated them in downtown, our downtown would dwarf yours. Philadelphia is a dump of city. New York is a real city. Philadelphia is old. Who cares if it has high rises if they are old, abandoned and ugly. There is absoutely nothing to do in Philadelphia and the nightlife and bar scene is better in the valley than the city of Philadelphia. I went to the best Philly had to offer and it paled in comparison to old town Scottsdale. Everyone in Philly wants to take the train to NYC because Philly's downtown is awful. Trust me, I will take some of the chain restaurants we have over the ghetto crack houses and shanty crime ridden holes you call restaurants in your city. The food is terrible there aside from the cheesesteaks. The bars are tiny. The women are pasty and fat. Philadelphia's downtown looks a lot smaller than San Franscisco, Seattle and Boston so it's hard to believe it has the third largest downtown. I can tell you for a fact that it doesn't look bigger than those cities and no one outside of Philadelphia would believe your downtown appears larger than SF, Boston and Seattle. And our suburbs are not like your suburbs. Our suburbs actually offer nice restaurants, shopping and recreational activities. And you can have the Liberty Bell, I'll take the Phoenician spa and resort. Our suburbs have companies. Your suburbs are nothing but tracks of houses with gas stations in between. You rely upon your downtown for everything. In cities like LA and Phoenix, we have a downtown but our suburbs are self containing as well. The sad thing is our downtown is now being developed as well so we will have the best of both worlds while Philly's downtown continues to erode. Why do you think so many people from Philly move to Phoenix? Oh yeah, I've been to Portland and I honestly think Oklahoma City feels bigger than Portland. Portland feels tiny. I can't believe they even have an NBA franchise because it feels so tiny

The east coast is dying with the exception of New York! Face it, your cities are old. Your crime is high. Your weather stinks. Your people are rude and difficult to deal with. Anything that is innovative and cutting edge starts in the west and moves east whether you are talking about trends or technology. This is nothing more than jealousy and bitterness by the fact that everything is moving west and that the east coast is dying. There is a reason Phoenix has been the first or second fastest growing city in the country while Philadelphia has been losing people. Likewise, you can't call an ugly old dump a city because it has some sky skrapers. Phoenix is a far more beautiful city than that rusted beat up city called Philadelphia. Maybe you should spread out and develop your city. There is no point keeping some of those tall crack houses and abandoned office buildings. Phoenix looks like a resort while Philadelphia looks like an industrial wasteland. You said you had fun in Phoenix but I had no fun at all in Philly. It was a dump. I was also trapped in Philly in a snow storm and the taxi cab companies were shut down as well. You couldn't get out of that pit.

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by cevett

But this whole population argument thing going on here makes me laugh because Phoenix covers the largest area of land in the country which is exactly why it hardly resembles a "city". It's actually a rediculously spread out town.

Phoenix actually takes up less land area than Jacksonville, Oklahoma City, and Anchorage. All cities with much smaller populations.

Originally Posted by cevett

Philadelphia, Chicago, NYC are "cities." You have vibrant downtowns in a real city.. Cities are Urban, not suburban sprawl and anexed land.

Phoenix is a "real city." I'm sorry to break it to you, but cities across this country have not been constructed in the same manner as any of the cities you listed since about 1900.

Originally Posted by cevett

Philadelphia has just as many people living in a quarter of the space. It's not a giant suburb, sprawling with identical strip malls and walmarts and franchised restaurants OVER and OVER again.

I don't see what's wrong with this. Box stores and strip malls are convenient. I would much rather live in an environment where I know I can go shopping, and I will not have to circle the block 10 times to find a space to parallel park.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by cevett

In reference to Phoenix being the 5th largest city and taking over Philadelphia a few years ago: I just have to say that I like Phoenix for numerous reasons and I had a lot of fun living there. But this whole population argument thing going on here makes me laugh because Phoenix covers the largest area of land in the country which is exactly why it hardly resembles a "city". It's actually a rediculously spread out town.

Philadelphia, Chicago, NYC are "cities." You have vibrant downtowns in a real city.. Cities are Urban, not suburban sprawl and anexed land. If you count the square miles around Philly that Phoenix counts as it's own, Philly would absolutely dwarf Phoenix. It's Metro area already does.

Philadelphia has just as many people living in a quarter of the space. It's not a giant suburb, sprawling with identical strip malls and walmarts and franchised restaurants OVER and OVER again. Philadelphia has the 3rd largest downtown in the country and if you went there, you would see that it feels five times bigger than Phoenix becuase of the population density. Not to mention being the birth place of our country and the culture, history and architecture back East is unparalled on the West coast. It's much more like Europe given that's who created those cities.

I am originally from Portland Oregon and even Portland feels like a bigger city than Phoenix. It doesn't count when you annex five hundred plus square miles of land and call it a "city"..

Another long-distance Phoenix basher relying on outdated stereotypes and invalid comparisons -- just what this board needs. Many of these tired arguments have been refuted again and again, but ultimately preferences like those mentioned above are subjective, so why bother arguing them? I like living in Phoenix; I've also visited Philadelphia many times and appreciate its charms. I don't feel the need to bash the latter in order to affirm my affection for the former. Wouldn't it be nice if the respect were mutual?

[tomahawk]

You're like kids arguing over who has the better, cooler, more expensive toy.
It's funny.

I will say though, I've been living just outside of Philly for 6 years now and I can't wait to get back to Phoenix.

[Bill-]

Almost every east coast and midwestern city suffers from the same sprawl that Phoenix does, it's just wrappped around an older pre-automobile central core. It's just a function of age.

[ibarrio]

So by your definition of a city, Los Angeles is not a city? Just a population center of 18 million people....but not a city. Downtown L.A. is pretty much dead...much like it is in Phoenix.

[Greatday]

Those who suggest that downtown Phoenix is "dead", have not been downtown of late!

[sablebaby]

Come on, what is the purpose of this thread? Why do you feel so inclined to come over here and waste time posting such a thing? I'd rather spend my time doing something more constructive, like living life.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by Bill-

Almost every east coast and midwestern city suffers from the same sprawl that Phoenix does, it's just wrappped around an older pre-automobile central core. It's just a function of age.

Bill is 100% correct. Not only do east coast cities sprawl out too-- but their suburban areas are even more sprawled out and car-dependent than the suburbs of western cities like Phoenix. The Phoenix metro area is divided up into an efficient 1x1 mile grid design, so you can have a bus route going up and down every arterial. Phoenix actually has sidewalks, not only in suburban neighborhoods, but along the arterials too-- most east coast suburbs have no sidewalks at all. In Phoenix, not having a car would suck, but you wouldn't be 100% stranded either, assuming you live within the boundaries of Valley Metro service. Suburbs of western cities like Phoenix are organized in a politically efficient manner. Most suburbs of Phoenix are huge and have at least 100,000 people, sometimes 100,000s. Eastern cities, by contrast, have 100s and 100s of miniscule "townships" and municipalities, each one only caring about their little neck of the woods. Because of that, eastern cities are not elastic, and have little or no ability to annex land and maintain their tax base as development expands outward. Not to mention that for the most part (there are exceptions both ways), east coast cities are much more racially segregated than western cities.