EEOC violations (Phoenix, Miami: lawyer, law school, college)

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by Greatday

I can appreciate your situation but, inasmuch as you mentioned Christians, I can tell you, with complete confidence, that no employer is required to give someone time off to go to Church.

If I am an business, who is open 6 days a week - Mon to Sat, and you are unable to work on Saturday, and that is when I need someone, I'm sorry, I don't have to, by law, shift other workers schedules around to accomodate you.

As for an unemployment rate - we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the nation right here in AZ -

I'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong. You most certainly cannot prevent someone from going to church and you certainly can't fire a current employee who used to be non-observant but is now religious because their conscience would prevent them from missing church. Catholics in particular have a "penalty of sin" obligation to attend weekly and sometimes other days during the year.

What you cannot do is impose on someone else's rights to accommodate mine.

I notice you didn't address the issue of disability accommodation.

On karma, I will tell you a story. Becoming "religious" is a process so in that journey each of us decides where we can start and how we progress. For us the decision to be Sabbath observant came because not only did we not prosper, we caused the suffering of others when my husband worked on Sat. He had expressed a preference to not work then but, because it was that or the streets, he did so reluctantly. My husband is a man of integrity so having made that decision, he in no way turned in a less than excellent performance. Despite working hard and being successful in sales on days that are generally poor for cars and furniture, he didn't get a single "up" on Saturdays. The reason was that Saturday business dropped off so precipitously that the managers didn't know what hit them. He had been hired because business was so good. Not only that, the furniture store was owned by a less religious Jewish guy and not only did business drop, the main road approaching the store got washed out and was out for months. They were off the main drag and got very little off the street anyway but now even regulars couldn't get there easily and just put off their re-do's for a couple of months. Teh car sales dropped after Katrina rather than picking up as everyone thought assuming those poeple would need new cars to replace the ones that got flooded.
My husband did nothing to cause this drop in business. He did not bad mouth the employers. In fact he continued to prospect and do call backs on inactive files. G-d don't play. I don't think He was punishing us or the store owners but He was sending a message to us. We don't completely understand but we persevere knowing that for us it is a no-no to violate this Commandment.

I guess our mistake was in thinking the laws of this land would protect us and that those such as yourself wouldn't violate them with such bold faced impunity. It is really sad and shocking to not only see your hardness but that you scoff at the law just as much as the "illegals" you probably despise.
I guess you get away with it because the courts are overburdened (to give them the benefit of a doubt) and because there is such a low unemployment rate you can pick and choose. You have no shame.

So we're still coming to PHX. It doesn't matter to me if I get Medicaid in FL or AZ or whose food stamps buy me food. If that's all I can do to keep alive thanks to people like you, I will lose my shame very quickly.
Thank you for your generous contribution.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by jessiesma

I notice you didn't address the issue of disability accommodation.

No simply because I believed your primary concern was religious

While an employer cannot discriminate based on disability, the ADA does provide that such discrimination is not allowed provided the employee can perform the essential functions of the job AND would not be placed in harms way because of such disability.

So while you indicated you were discriminated / denied employment because of a disability, without knowing the exact circumstances of the situation, it would be impossible to make a totally intelligent observation as to if, IMO, a unlawful discriminatory act took place

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by jessiesma

I'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong.

I guess our mistake was in thinking the laws of this land would protect us and that those such as yourself wouldn't violate them with such bold faced impunity. It is really sad and shocking to not only see your hardness but that you scoff at the law just as much as the "illegals" you probably despise.
I guess you get away with it because the courts are overburdened (to give them the benefit of a doubt) and because there is such a low unemployment rate you can pick and choose. You have no shame.

So we're still coming to PHX. It doesn't matter to me if I get Medicaid in FL or AZ or whose food stamps buy me food. If that's all I can do to keep alive thanks to people like you, I will lose my shame very quickly.
Thank you for your generous contribution.

I would like to ask how you get off criticizing someone who you do not know?

Just a little FYI - We work with the at risk population - those on the streets - those in shelters - those with AIDS. We work with the throw aways - so you can take your self righteous indignation and stuff it -

Perhaps you need to learn a little common courtesy and respect - especially if you want respect shown to you -

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Frankly, I take serious offense at your attacks on my character. They are totally unfair.

You wrote what YOU would do - and that is fine. That is YOUR decision if you owned a company.

The issue is not what YOU would do but rather, what the LAW requires. And although YOU might make such accomodations for an employee, the LAW does not require it.

If you are going to continue to make personal attacks on me, or anyone else, perhaps you need to look at yourself - and ask yourself if, possibly, it is your attitude, that may be creating part of the problem

I did not attack you personally but I may have to rethink that since "taking offense" and being defensive are the marks of a bully.
What I DID do is criticize your behavior and attitudes HOPING you might see yourself and change since you seemed to be in a position to do so but if you are resorting to bullying, maybe you are feeling powerless. I feel sorry for you.
If your attack on my "attitude" means that despite being a woman in a difficult position, I have the strength to stand up for myself and not become someone's door mat, so be it.

What? You want mindless clones who will blindly obey your every whim working for you? Those are called slaves, not employees. My people beat that rap 4,000 years ago. I have no intention of getting under it again.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by jessiesma

I did not attack you personally

Yes - you did. Re-read your post -

[MotleyCrew]

I would suggest looking into moving to CA. The climate there for people with religious concerns and disabilities is far more generous than a "right to work" state like AZ. Still, some of the Adventist that did not want to work on the Sabath, lost their cases and were terminated. I would suggest looking at a town in northern CA, called Chico. It is very open minded and equal opportunity issues are taken seriously, rent is not too spendy. Food stamps are plentiful. Best of luck in your search.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by MotleyCrew

I would suggest looking into moving to CA. The climate there for people with religious concerns and disabilities is far more generous than a "right to work" state like AZ. Still, some of the Adventist that did not want to work on the Sabath, lost their cases and were terminated. I would suggest looking at a town in northern CA, called Chico. It is very open minded and equal opportunity issues are taken seriously, rent is not too spendy. Food stamps are plentiful. Best of luck in your search.

Great Suggestion. California has a much more generous welfare program than does Arizona

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Yes - you did. Re-read your post -

I think you do serious and wonderful work but maybe you are so focused on the needs of your community that you missed the clauses that apply to other rights granted in the Constitution???
This is my big quarrel with "special interests" legislation, even tho it may benefit me. Every group seems to think that if another gets a law enacted to help them it will somehow take away from the first group.

But you make my point. Does any place in America need two more "throw-aways?" The money SHOULD be used for those who are truly hopeless. We have a terrible homeless situation here in St. Pete. It's a total disgrace. Many of the homeless actually have regular jobs but they are seen as an embarrassment because of how TOURISTS view them. My husband and I should be helping the private organizations who are doing what they can. Instead we are needing their help because we choose to follow our consciences regarding religion.
So yes, I've gotten a little angry and stopped exposing myself to the abuse of would be employers who won't even give me the dignity of testing my office skills before they tell me "we don't have anything." And now that you've said what it is you do, I understand your anger and frustration but please don't make this a competition.
I was going to suggest you read both the Declaration of Independence and Constitution so you see how those EEOC laws apply not only to your special needs population but to those who seek religious freedom also. THAT is the singular issue upon which this nation was founded even more than "taxation without representation."

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by jessiesma

I was going to suggest you read both the Declaration of Independence and Constitution so you see how those EEOC laws apply not only to your special needs population but to those who seek religious freedom also. THAT is the singular issue upon which this nation was founded even more than "taxation without representation."

Thank you - I read them - both - in law school

[vegaspilgrim]

Jessiesma, I'm Jewish too, btw, I suggest you back off. Find something else to do with your life other than picking on Greatday and other members of this forum. I agree with Greatday-- the reason you're having trouble finding work probably has more to do with your attitude than with your religion. Do you really even want to work, or are you just talking? "Equal opportunity employment" doesn't mean that any employer has to bend over backwards for you. If someone cannot work on Saturday, that's a scheduling issue and a legitimate factor that might play a role in the decision to hire or not. There could be many different reasons why someone might not be able to work on Saturday-- ex: a religious observance, another part time job, family reasons-- whatever. The reason behind "No Saturdays" is your problem, not theirs. Another example-- you can take off for the High Holidays, etc, but you'll have to count that as a vacation day-- or unpaid. All "Equal Opportunity" means, is that, given that you are in fact qualified for the job and have enough available schedule for the employer, they cannot discriminate against you just because you happen to be an Orthodox Jew. That's all it means.

Oh, and btw, that's an absolute BOGUS claim that you're not allowed to work for an employer that happens to do business on Saturday. You might not be allowed to work, but what your employer does has nothing to do with you (unless if it's a Kosher bakery or food processing plant or something).