EEOC violations (real estate, lenders, school)

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Great Suggestion. California has a much more generous welfare program than does Arizona

I DON"T WANT WELFARE. That's what this is all about

Also CA has earthquakes, too stressful for an MSer, also too cold and dreary, MUST HAVE SUN and I don't think there's a whole lot of Jewish life in any small town anywhere. That's what this is all about. If my able bodied husband could work I wouldn't have to. Our needs are small.

Guess you guys just don't want a couple more of them thar Jews comin' into yer territory, huh

I'm familiar with the Adventists case. Very sad. We have common cause and until you're affected, you won't realize that this is just plain unjust and illegal.

[MotleyCrew]

I am just curious as to why you could not simply apply at firms that are open Monday through Friday? You seem to be picking employment fights before you need to. There are plenty of law firms in Phoenix that do not work on Sat. Do you need to work in the service industry? Then you may have an issue with the Sabath and work schedules. It seems like much ado about nothing. Please do not take my previous post as you seeking welfare or food stamps. I simply mentioned them because Chico is very generous to those who can not make it for whatever the reason.
Regarding a couple of more of youse guys moving to AZ. We are a fairly mixed group of people coming here and I have not seen any attacks on Jews or any other group. The people on this forum are very helpful and very welcoming.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by jessiesma

I DON"T WANT WELFARE. That's what this is all about

Also CA has earthquakes, too stressful for an MSer, also too cold and dreary,

Say, when are you going to Hawaii? I thought you and your husband were already planning the trip - you know - drive to CA - then ship the VW -

[Boatdrinks]

What kind of work are you looking for? If you have a speech impediment, I'd suggest NOT looking into jobs that require clear articulation. If you're not able to stand for long periods, then odds are, you WILL need a job where they'll stick you in a cubical all day. Is that discrimination? No - it's an employer filling their needs. I imagine it may feel like discrimination, but if you look at it objectively, it's not. Yes, they'll employ Stephen Hawkings at the college, but they're most certainly NOT going to put him at the reception desk answering phones. NOT b/c he's "ugly" as you so kindly and compassionately put it, but b/c he can't speak! Should the college be forced to have him answer phones JUST b/c he's disabled? To fill some quota? NO! And no business should be forced to employ you, or anyone else, to fill a quota.

As for EEOC violations in AZ, I know of many frivolous lawsuits here in the Phoenix area against companies who did nothing wrong and are still being sued by idiots who want a quick buck and can't face the facts that they're just incompetent and were fired for valid reasons. So if you're lookin to sue someone, AZ may be the state for you.

I think that if you're devoutly religious, you need to accept that there will be limitations on your work options. That's just a fact. You're putting your religion before everything else, including more job opportunities, which is fine, but I don't know why it's shocking that your options will be limited by your availability schedule. If I'm a single dad who must pick up her kids at school at 3:00, am I to expect my employer to let me off at 2:30 every day b/c of my availability schedule? If I'm a devout Muslim working in an ER and a guy comes in with a GSW to the head, am I to tell him to hold of for just a bit while I grab my rug and go pray for the 4th time that day? If I'm a 95 pound female, am I to put people's lives in jeopardy by forcing the fire department to hire me just b/c I'm a female? Well, sadly, that does happen....

My point is that we ALL have limitations and we ALL MUST ACCEPT THEM and NOT expect the rest of the world to conform to our every desire. I've always wanted to be a marine biologist, but rather then demanding some firm hire me b/c I'm black or muslim or blind or a woman, I stick to saving beached whales by removing golf balls from their blow holes

[MotleyCrew]

Whew. Ditto Boatdrinks. I suggested CA because of all of the above. We moved our business from CA because of all of the above. We like AZ just fine.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Jessiesma, I'm Jewish too, btw, I suggest you back off. Find something else to do with your life other than picking on Greatday and other members of this forum. I agree with Greatday-- the reason you're having trouble finding work probably has more to do with your attitude than with your religion. Do you really even want to work, or are you just talking? "Equal opportunity employment" doesn't mean that any employer has to bend over backwards for you. If someone cannot work on Saturday, that's a scheduling issue and a legitimate factor that might play a role in the decision to hire or not. There could be many different reasons why someone might not be able to work on Saturday-- ex: a religious observance, another part time job, family reasons-- whatever. The reason behind "No Saturdays" is your problem, not theirs. Another example-- you can take off for the High Holidays, etc, but you'll have to count that as a vacation day-- or unpaid. All "Equal Opportunity" means, is that, given that you are in fact qualified for the job and have enough available schedule for the employer, they cannot discriminate against you just because you happen to be an Orthodox Jew. That's all it means.

Oh, and btw, that's an absolute BOGUS claim that you're not allowed to work for an employer that happens to do business on Saturday. You might not be allowed to work, but what your employer does has nothing to do with you (unless if it's a Kosher bakery or food processing plant or something).

I don't think I said that we couldn't work for someone who's open on Sat. I just said that that's the excuse they use for requiring we be available.
NO, another part-time job is not a legitimate reason for asking for exception but under the EEOC's guidelines, it definitely is although as I said, It was an EEOC investigator who said the courts here will not honor it. So It is my problem in fact but it should not be. 22 years ago I could work for a major retailer and the Jews would swap with the Christians on holidays. NO one had to give up a vacation day or pay to do what the Constitution guarantees. The Constitution says nothing about working several jobs or going to a kid's soccer game. Please don't trivialize it. Our Torah is the very foundation of that great document.

I don't always read thru every post so maybe you didn't read that I have MS and I stagger and sometimes slur. Before the symptoms became evident, I had no problem with work. Now, if I even get into an interview and testing, I am dismissed and never hear from them again again. While I may be venting here a bit, I am mature enough to conduct myself appropriately when I go to apply. I don't give anyone attitude.
I also said I had been fired and they were stupid enough to say it was my "disability," not because I couldn't do the job but because they were afraid I would fall even tho it is not a predominant feature of MY MS. They then told me they were afraid I would sue them if that happened. Unfortunately I was employed by a contract agency and could do nothing about this Fortune 10 company that banned me from their property.

BTW have you ever been told you were OVER qualified? That's almost worse. When you are doing entry level work, your co-workers resent your can-do, diligent attitude. I've actually been told I'm too good and the inevitable happens,the catty girls make trouble. If I keep my head down and avoid them. I'm a snob and if I try to be friends, I must be after something. Managers have actually told me to try less, in other words, do a half baked job to not upset the office environment. Not in my DNA but that's just my answer to your question of do I even want to work? I'm one of the hardest most motivated workers and able you or anyone else could want but most people don't want because it sets too high a standard.

Excuse me, but I am not picking on people, I asked a question about our chances of getting work in PHX and was given a barrage of indignation from someone who didn't have the integrity to identify himself as a lawyer.
Actually, I don't know if Greatday is a lawyer or just someone who says he went to law school. I would hope he read the Constitution and Declaration well before that time. These forums are my only outlet for info and exchange of ideas. We don't always have to agree but at 61, the only people I know are a bunch of old fuddy duddies who think a trip to Miami is more adventure than a body can stand. They also mostly have the resources to not understand why we want and need to work.
BTWA, I have found SSI to be a trap. Can only own 1 car and if husband makes just a few dollars more, certainly not enough to make a difference, I lose it. It's based on poverty level but those guidelines are not realisitc in our local area. Don't know about there and don't care.

I have an appointment with Vocational Rehab. They not only train, they are supposed to help with these accommodation things. Now they are saying someone with a visible disability should disclose at the beginning of the interview but some interviewers are so afraid of PC laws, they won't let you speak about it and in my case, I don't always get that far anyway.

I now have a huge gap in my resume and my Windows skills are lagging. I'm great on a Mac. I don't know if I can drive at all or if just driving a stick has become too complicated for my coordination.
I've given this lengthy answer because you asked but I felt you misread some of what I wrote. Hope this clarifies it.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by MotleyCrew

I am just curious as to why you could not simply apply at firms that are open Monday through Friday? You seem to be picking employment fights before you need to. There are plenty of law firms in Phoenix that do not work on Sat. Do you need to work in the service industry? Then you may have an issue with the Sabath and work schedules. It seems like much ado about nothing. Please do not take my previous post as you seeking welfare or food stamps. I simply mentioned them because Chico is very generous to those who can not make it for whatever the reason.
Regarding a couple of more of youse guys moving to AZ. We are a fairly mixed group of people coming here and I have not seen any attacks on Jews or any other group. The people on this forum are very helpful and very welcoming.

Hey Motley Crew,
My husband HAS applied for numerous legal asst. positions because he has a degree in non-fiction writing and post bac course work in prof. writing and some other stuff that should be an asset. I don't know why they don't hire him but we are in a VERY traditional part of the country where those are seen as "women's" jobs. Do you think, I'm asking sincerely, PHX firms are more open to men in traditionally "women's" jobs? That would be a big bonus!

Don't need service jobs, in fact, would really, really prefer one that isn't but those are plentiful and often the easiest to get. Call centers, etc. They've been a bit more open to those who don't have the "right" skill set for something else. I'd love a job in a law firm, I did ok on the LSAT just a few years ago but learning MS really took all my energy for a while. I, like Anne Romney, was diagnosed late.
I appreciate your suggestions. I was just sorta funnin' ya about not wanting Jews and its because we see the West as a pretty tolerant place. In contrast, my husband was handed a note on 10/24 saying "Jews will die on 10/25 and the school board did nothing. Neither did the police. they said it wasn't a threat under FL . statutes and not "hate" speech because the kid who wrote it has freedom of expression. Don't think that's what Tom and the boys had in mind when they wrote that.
My original intention in posting, which obviously backfired, was to see if anyone would step up and offer a concrete solution.
I come from a family of independent professionals so I understand the business reasons behind the current situation but I'm also old enough to have been in the work place where schedules were made with individual needs in mind. Now it seems everyone has adopted the "block shift" model and the very things that EEO was supposed to prevent have become reality.

[vegaspilgrim]

Jessiesma, I am sorry to hear that you have MS and several disabilities. I can't imagine what it must be like to go through that! I really don't know what to say...you're almost 3 times my age, so I have no idea what it's like to be in your shoes.

One thing I will say though: city-data.com is probably not the greatest online forum for you to help think things out. What you have to say about your religion and how it affects your life is going way over the heads of most people in this forum (including me). That should tell you something about what kind of city Phoenix is. It's not that people here are anti-semitic, it's that they don't care about or understand issues relating to Orthodox Jewish life one way or another. And why should they? This is not Brooklyn. This is not West Palm Beach. This is not Fairfax. If you have specific questions about what Phoenix is like, ask away. One other thing: if you are unable to drive a car or think that sometime in the near future you will be unable to drive, DO NOT move to Phoenix, or you will severely regret it.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by Boatdrinks

What kind of work are you looking for? If you have a speech impediment, I'd suggest NOT looking into jobs that require clear articulation. If you're not able to stand for long periods, then odds are, you WILL need a job where they'll stick you in a cubical all day. Is that discrimination? No - it's an employer filling their needs. I imagine it may feel like discrimination, but if you look at it objectively, it's not. Yes, they'll employ Stephen Hawkings at the college, but they're most certainly NOT going to put him at the reception desk answering phones. NOT b/c he's "ugly" as you so kindly and compassionately put it, but b/c he can't speak! Should the college be forced to have him answer phones JUST b/c he's disabled? To fill some quota? NO! And no business should be forced to employ you, or anyone else, to fill a quota.

As for EEOC violations in AZ, I know of many frivolous lawsuits here in the Phoenix area against companies who did nothing wrong and are still being sued by idiots who want a quick buck and can't face the facts that they're just incompetent and were fired for valid reasons. So if you're lookin to sue someone, AZ may be the state for you.

I think that if you're devoutly religious, you need to accept that there will be limitations on your work options. That's just a fact. You're putting your religion before everything else, including more job opportunities, which is fine, but I don't know why it's shocking that your options will be limited by your availability schedule. If I'm a single dad who must pick up her kids at school at 3:00, am I to expect my employer to let me off at 2:30 every day b/c of my availability schedule? If I'm a devout Muslim working in an ER and a guy comes in with a GSW to the head, am I to tell him to hold of for just a bit while I grab my rug and go pray for the 4th time that day? If I'm a 95 pound female, am I to put people's lives in jeopardy by forcing the fire department to hire me just b/c I'm a female? Well, sadly, that does happen....

My point is that we ALL have limitations and we ALL MUST ACCEPT THEM and NOT expect the rest of the world to conform to our every desire. I've always wanted to be a marine biologist, but rather then demanding some firm hire me b/c I'm black or muslim or blind or a woman, I stick to saving beached whales by removing golf balls from their blow holes

Wow, you really bombarded me here I hope I can get thru it all accurately. I'll answer the issue of the Muslim in the ER first. I hope that they are permitted to put saving life ahead of religious obligation. I don't know but that's how it works in Judaism. If my husband or I were medical professionals, we'd be exempt because saving life is uppermost. The guys who clean up in Israel after a bombing become ritually "impure" but they are allowed to do it because their's is a compassionate job, picking up body parts for proper burial.
I realize what I said about Hawking came across wrong. He is now disfigured from his illness and that's what makes people uncomfortable. That is my problem although no nearly as severe. Something about the way my mouth wobbles makes people think I'm making faces at them. Actually I speak better than most Americans. I was raised with excellent diction and my teachers demanded I "enunciate" clearly. When I speak to strangers on the phone from home, no one has a problem. That is merely an excuse some people use. But please reread my post. I said that because that is a problem, just stick me in a cubicle. I should have said that it has been temp. agencies that have dismissed my without so much as a typing test.
And of course, if I can no longer stand I don't expect to do retail. Would I even be so stupid as to apply? My difficulties came at the hands of lawyers who were paranoid that I'd fall going to the ladies room. When I mentioned a wheel chair they became even more paranoid. I can still walk short distances and haven't fallen in several years. I didn't need any accommodation for the wheelchair. There was space in the lobby to park it and I could walk to my desk. It just happened that the caf. was two city blocks away with no place closer to eat. I was working RECEPTION at a classy place and couldn't even read while there even a cup of water was a no-no.
Actually I feel for you if you are a single mom. You shouldn't have to suffer either if there is a real need, like not having a reliable person to help.

Yeah. I'm with you no the fire dept. thing and that's why I'm really anti-accommodation in many areas. I sure couldn't rescue whales now. I most certainly do not wish to sue anyone. That is one of the problems. It is frivolous suits that have caused employers to become so defensive.

I think you are seeing this all backwards, however. Requesting REASONABLE accommodation is not demanding to be filled to "meet a quota." It is just the opposite. Quota filling applies when someone is NOT qualified but the company has a poor history of hiring "minorities." All Teh accommodation statutes cover is if a QUALIFIED minority person, color, religion, disability etc. applies or becomes disabled or religious or even transgenders during their employment, they cannot be turned away because of their disability or because they decide to exercise one of the basic freedoms guaranteed in The Bill of Rights.

The thing is why should Religious freedom be a limitation? as I said, isn't that why the Pilgrims came here? That they took away the Native People's away is kinda ironic but it is one of the basic tenets of our government.
If I thought it was a limitation, would I embrace it? that'd be stupid wouldn't it? Well, come to think of it, that's what some religions do but not Judaism. The "laws" really precepts are there to instruct and discipline, much like other Eastern religions, not punish and reward. So yes it's hard but while we're looking for the way to synthesize the temporal with the spiritual we need to survive. It shouldn't come to a choice between a life of compromise and death on the streets. And that my dear, is where we are at.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Jessiesma, I am sorry to hear that you have MS and several disabilities. I can't imagine what it must be like to go through that! I really don't know what to say...you're almost 3 times my age, so I have no idea what it's like to be in your shoes.

One thing I will say though: city-data.com is probably not the greatest online forum for you to help think things out. What you have to say about your religion and how it affects your life is going way over the heads of most people in this forum (including me). That should tell you something about what kind of city Phoenix is. It's not that people here are anti-semitic, it's that they don't care about or understand issues relating to Orthodox Jewish life one way or another. And why should they? This is not Brooklyn. This is not West Palm Beach. This is not Fairfax. If you have specific questions about what Phoenix is like, ask away. One other thing: if you are unable to drive a car or think that sometime in the near future you will be unable to drive, DO NOT move to Phoenix, or you will severely regret it.

There are only a few places in this country where there is good public transportation and they all have snow and ice in the winter. Don't think West Palm has much in the way fo buses. Southerners do NOT like the bus.
It will be a big problem but worry more about my in-laws still being on the road at their age They have no options or rather refuse to take them. Be glad they aren't where you are. This is a crisis in the making as we Boomers age and there's no way to get to stores, doctors etc. I know too many people who shouldn't be on the road but are. If you report them, DMV gets all sympathetic and lets them keep their licenses.
Anyway what are younger husbands for?


I know PHX isn't particularly anti-semitic. Actually PHX has a large Jewish community. Supposedly the second fastest growing one. Orthodox Jews aren't hermits. They even use You Tube
I was hoping members of the community in PHX would be looking at this forum and also I was asking about tolerance.
We can't afford a closet in Brooklyn, West Palm or Fairfax snow aside, and there are "internal" issues that a non-Jew can't understand. Some of them are stupid but they are real nonetheless. PHX has the Jewish community we are comfortable with.
Thanks for the heads up. I'm kinda new to the whole forum thing and sometimes the way to learn anything is to wade in and see what happens.
I just had to figure it out. BTW any issue that impact a community IS about that community. I don't think you mean to put us in a ghetto but that's how it sounds and one reason we don't consider the places you suggest. They have done that to themselves. I am an artist and plan to get involved in that scene. Judaism allows, no demands, its practitioners be involved in life. Those who hide behind barriers are wrong.