EEOC violations (Phoenix, Miami: gated, wage , jobs)

[jessiesma]

an Orthodox friend from Brooklyn told my husband that PHX is now the second fastest growing Jewish community in the country? is that so? we assume he meant Orthodox. We're getting to that point but the first thing we are observing is the Sabbath. We won't violate that by working or doing commerce.
One reason we've been struggling is that we can't afford NY, plus it's cold, dreary, and except for Manhattan narrow minded and aged in thinking. My husband has run into a pretty consistent string of EEO violators as far as saying he's unavailable on Sat. He can't get any job where the place is open on Sat. and we're not making it. I've been fired for having MS even tho I'm functioning.They say I'm a liability cause I might fall. Assistive devices send them into paroxysms of fear. Then there's age. we're not so young but need to work, forget retirement. Not in our vocabulary.

The EEOC was sympathetic but said the courts, here anyway, are not favorable to religiously based complaints and when it's a hiring issue in an at will state, forget it. They can get around it in a hundred different ways.
Our argument is that we're talking about unskilled work (in the sense my husband isn't the only one around with the knowledge) where the business may be open on Sat. There are many people who'd jump at the chance to earn some extra money on a Sat. and my husband has no problem working EVERY Sunday. If businesses would be more flexible, there'd be more people who need a p/t job who could work just a few hours and those who have talents and abilities wouldn't be forced to be on food stamps and asking for assistance with elect. bills.

I don't want this to merely be a rant. I am looking at going back to work if someone will look past my difficulty in walking and if my slight speech impediment is displeasing to clients, stick me in a cubicle by myself. I know sometimes I appear to be under the influence but I don't take anything. My husband is a talented and smart man who's had some struggles in life but is a willing worker and has a BA in English. He will learn and do anything legal he has to within his capabilities (not too physical) to support us. He just took a tax prep course and got one of the higher scores but did they hire him? Of course not because he can't be there on ...Saturday even tho the place is open 24/7.

there's a silly thread about Esst coast "cities" vs. PHX or LA but I think the truth is that the whole country except maybe the West, is aging mentally. 60 is the new 40? if that's true than life doesn't begin at 40 for most. I never knew why we were square pegs in round holes until we started considering the West. We're not liberal, retro hippies by any means but even at 61, me, and 55, husband, we are mentally vital, young and ready for a new life. Having MS has taught me that my body may crumble but as long as I have a brain in my head, and mine is only about 29 in reality, I can contribute to society if others don't stop me. I've been made poor by some of the things I've described above plus my own sense of being overwhelmed. I'm sick of being on SSI and other forms of welfare (although thank G-d they exist for the truly needy) because some corporate legal sharks thought my using a cane was a liability and banned me from the work site or because I didn't project the "right " image. And I need more than minimum wage because I can contribute much more than just a body to fill space.

WE need good jobs. WE need to be around people who won't judge us because of what they don't understand and we need a more congenial Jewish community where we can grow in our observance and in short, just a place where we can thrive for the next 25 years.
Must we face "living on the beach" literally or is there such a place in PHX for us?

[silverbear]

Wow. A lot going on in this post. I won't try to comment on everything, but I will point out that if you and your family are Orthodox Jewish, you might be interested in knowing that there is an eruv in North Central Phoenix. Living within it might give you a little flexibility on the Sabbath, although it won't help with workplace issues.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Wow. A lot going on in this post. I won't try to comment on everything, but I will point out that if you and your family are Orthodox Jewish, you might be interested in knowing that there is an eruv in North Central Phoenix. Living within it might give you a little flexibility on the Sabbath, although it won't help with workplace issues.

husband spoke to a rabbi and he didn't mention that. how's the area in general? we are Sephardic and have not been overly welcome by some others in some places. Have visited N. Miami Beach and it has too much of a ghetto feel which I realize is what a lot of people want. I can only walk a block or two, none in high heat so I will miss a lot of Shabbat fun if we are in a super frum area. Need a rabbi with more of a don't ask, don't tell attitude if you know what I mean. They exist and quite honestly, with synagogues so wide spread and not every baal chuva or seeker being able to live in walking distance, that might be an issue that has to be revisited by the Orthodox in the modern diaspora.
Any other issues you would address would be most welcome.

[Greatday]

Like New York, IMO, no court would rule in your favor in Arizona either

An employer, advertising for staff, may establish when they need staffing - they are not obligated to change their schedules to meet your special needs

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by jessiesma

husband spoke to a rabbi and he didn't mention that. how's the area in general? we are Sephardic and have not been overly welcome by some others in some places. Have visited N. Miami Beach and it has too much of a ghetto feel which I realize is what a lot of people want. I can only walk a block or two, none in high heat so I will miss a lot of Shabbat fun if we are in a super frum area. Need a rabbi with more of a don't ask, don't tell attitude if you know what I mean. They exist and quite honestly, with synagogues so wide spread and not every baal chuva or seeker being able to live in walking distance, that might be an issue that has to be revisited by the Orthodox in the modern diaspora.
Any other issues you would address would be most welcome.

NCP is the traditional center of Jewish life in Phoenix with several synagogues and kosher markets and restaurants. It's pretty suburban in feel, so unless you live right next to a synagogue you'll probably still do some pretty heavy-duty walking in the summer heat. As for specific rabbis and such, I can't help much since I'm not Jewish; I just live near the eruv and several Orthodox families, so I've picked up a bit of knowledge through osmosis.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by Greatday

Like New York, IMO, no court would rule in your favor in Arizona either

An employer, advertising for staff, may establish when they need staffing - they are not obligated to change their schedules to meet your special needs

That's exactly what the EEO laws are about even if you don't agree with them philosophically. They are meant to give accommodation to those with special needs in order to enable them to be productive members of society. And yes, religion is one of those needs. I shouldn't be impoverished because my religion prohibits ALL work on one particular day. This is not a day for "goofing off." There are things we are supposed to do also but working and handling money are prohibited. BTW. I'm not looking for a court in AZ or anywhere else, just saying how even the courts are violating the law.
If I owned a store, I'd tell my Christian employees they needn't work earlier than say, 1p.m. so they could go to church and if they were strict enough to follow the no work prohibition on their "sabbath" I would certainly accommodate that. Ditto a Moslem worker who dearly wanted to pray at his mosque on Fri. There is no store on Earth that cannot schedule around these needs when we have an unemployment rate and people willing to work any schedule to avoid poverty.
You're right about certain physical limitations to a degree. If, for example, I can't clear dressing rooms then they are within their rights to not hire me for a department that uses them BUT no employer is allowed by law to say my using a cane is a liability and because I need it to get to the lunch room or bathroom, I can't be hired. This was done to me. Also because I do have a bit of a speech problem that is visual also, the employer can ask me to work away from clients who may be disturbed (says a lot about our compassion doesn't it?) but they can't refuse to hire me because employees may be uneasy. Employees will get to know me and my work and the first impression, unless they are total ogres, should diminish. We all have things we just need to "get over." You think Cambridge would dare tell Stephen Hawking he couldn't come on campus because he is unpleasant to look at?
Your mentality is just the problem I'm talking about so next time you see your taxes going for food stamps, medicaid and other assistance programs or you wonder if there will be enough Social Security for your kids and grandkids, just remember your charming and compassionate words. To coin a cliche, you can be part of the problem or part of the solution, the choice is up to you.
You better pray, if you even believe in a god, that nothing happens to you or yours because you just sowed some really bad karma.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by jessiesma

That's exactly what the EEO laws are about even if you don't agree with them philosophically. They are meant to give accommodation to those with special needs in order to enable them to be productive members of society. And yes, religion is one of those needs. I shouldn't be impoverished because my religion prohibits ALL work on one particular day. This is not a day for "goofing off." There are things we are supposed to do also but working and handling money are prohibited. BTW. I'm not looking for a court in AZ or anywhere else, just saying how even the courts are violating the law.
If I owned a store, I'd tell my Christian employees they needn't work earlier than say, 1p.m. so they could go to church and if they were strict enough to follow the no work prohibition on their "sabbath" I would certainly accommodate that. Ditto a Moslem worker who dearly wanted to pray at his mosque on Fri. There is no store on Earth that cannot schedule around these needs when we have an unemployment rate and people willing to work any schedule to avoid poverty.

I can appreciate your situation but, inasmuch as you mentioned Christians, I can tell you, with complete confidence, that no employer is required to give someone time off to go to Church.

If I am an business, who is open 6 days a week - Mon to Sat, and you are unable to work on Saturday, and that is when I need someone, I'm sorry, I don't have to, by law, shift other workers schedules around to accomodate you.

As for an unemployment rate - we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the nation right here in AZ -

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by jessiesma

Your mentality is just the problem I'm talking about so next time you see your taxes going for food stamps, medicaid and other assistance programs or you wonder if there will be enough Social Security for your kids and grandkids, just remember your charming and compassionate words. To coin a cliche, you can be part of the problem or part of the solution, the choice is up to you.

You better pray, if you even believe in a god, that nothing happens to you or yours because you just sowed some really bad karma.

Frankly, I take serious offense at your attacks on my character. They are totally unfair.

You wrote what YOU would do - and that is fine. That is YOUR decision if you owned a company.

The issue is not what YOU would do but rather, what the LAW requires. And although YOU might make such accomodations for an employee, the LAW does not require it.

If you are going to continue to make personal attacks on me, or anyone else, perhaps you need to look at yourself - and ask yourself if, possibly, it is your attitude, that may be creating part of the problem

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by silverbear

NCP is the traditional center of Jewish life in Phoenix with several synagogues and kosher markets and restaurants. It's pretty suburban in feel, so unless you live right next to a synagogue you'll probably still do some pretty heavy-duty walking in the summer heat. As for specific rabbis and such, I can't help much since I'm not Jewish; I just live near the eruv and several Orthodox families, so I've picked up a bit of knowledge through osmosis.

I think what you're saying is what I mean about NMB. Even with the suburban feel. Wouldn't want that anyway. I refuse to accept that I can't attend services on Shabbat even tho as a woman I'm not obligated so I will continue to seek. The eruv isn't the biggest issue in our lives. It's a necessity for those with small kids because without it you can't even push a carriage. I have learned to not carry a purse but I guess within the eruv, it's pretty obvious someone would know you. In a diverse society, I do carry i.d. An eruv is also meant to define the boundaries of a "Sabbath walk" but very few people who won't drive here accept that small distance. Many will walk quite a bit further and I don't really know what the consensus opinion on that is vs. driving. It's still pretty hefty "work" especially in the heat.
Thanks for your good insights.

[jessiesma]

Originally Posted by Greatday

I can appreciate your situation but, inasmuch as you mentioned Christians, I can tell you, with complete confidence, that no employer is required to give someone time off to go to Church.

If I am an business, who is open 6 days a week - Mon to Sat, and you are unable to work on Saturday, and that is when I need someone, I'm sorry, I don't have to, by law, shift other workers schedules around to accomodate you.

As for an unemployment rate - we have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the nation right here in AZ -

I'm sorry to tell you that you are wrong. You most certainly cannot prevent someone from going to church and you certainly can't fire a current employee who used to be non-observant but is now religious because their conscience would prevent them from missing church. Catholics in particular have a"penalty of sin" obligation to attend weekly and sometimes other days during the year.

What you cannot do is impose on someone else's rights to accommodate mine.

I notice you didn't address the issue of disability accommodation.