Will Phoenix ever build a subway system? (live, price)

[Jukesgrrl]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

You can only build so much freeways before traffic starts to become unbearable. Eventually you're going to need huge investments in mass transit infrastructure. Have you forgotten that Phoenix is one of the most populated cities in the country and has been growing at a very fast rate over the past few decades?

Our politics might be as weird as Florida's, but we're not idiots here. We know we're #6 in the nation in population (virtually tied with Philadelphia) and we're growing much faster than East Coast cities. The issue of mass transportation has been studied very carefully and for decades. The region has made a commitment in the form of your "huge investment" to light rail as the most cost effective solution to the issue. It's working great so far and there are plans to expand it.

As kell490 astutely pointed out, the salient fact is that Maricopa County is larger than the state of New Jersey. Would you think it would be cost effective to fund a subway line that would go from Newark to Cape May? In Philadelphia you have a regional railway system that transports people from Center City to places like Media, Doylestown, and even Trenton. We don't have any such thing here, since Arizona wasn't even a state until the 20th century.

Philadelphia hasn't seen fit to extend its own underground subway into the suburbs. It's supplemented by buses, trolleys, the high-speed rail to Norristown, etc. Why are you so excited to see other cities get underground transportation when it is so rarely cost-effective outside of center cities?

Providing Public Transportation Alternatives for the Greater Phoenix Metro Area | Valley Metro |

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by Suckson

This would just be a bad plan - there's an appeal to subways that's somewhat inherent to Americans because we look back at places like New York City and think "wow, that's great." But the facts don't bear that fascination out into reality for most places since, as has been mentioned, the costs far outweigh the benefits.

Phoenix may be large, well populated, and growing quickly, but that doesn't have anything to do with the efficacy of a subway system. Phoenix is, besides those things, also very spread out and the cost of reaching the areas it would need to reach would be astronomical - to say "billions" wouldn't even do it justice since it would not be 1, 2 or even 5 or 10 billion, but much more.

.

Just because your city is spread out doesn't mean that it can't invest in a subway system for the future. Look at Los Angeles as a prime example. It is a very spread out city yet it choose to invest in a subway system and it has clearly paid off as ridership has grown despite the huge backlash it received back in the early 1990's when it was being constructed.

I spent nearly 5 years working on various rail and subway programs across the globe and I can tell you the cost is hundreds of millions of dollars per mile of track for a subway. It just isn't feasible, nor would it be effective if Phoenix was to build a small, "downtown" subway as is sometimes suggested, since those types of systems tend to see little use (reference Pittsburgh's system where the subway is very small, and the light rail only goes to the Southern suburbs ... it's a financial nightmare for the city)

For Pittsburgh's situation, it doesn't get the proper state funding for transportation. If the city got the proper funding, the city subway wouldn't be a financial nightmare for the city.

[stevek64]

Never. If anything I think the light rail will just be extended. I can see actually the opposite being the case, ie "floating" the light rail in certain areas above ground level, perhaps running parallel to major interstate/loops as opposed to digging down to make a subway. I think such a method would also accomplish the same thing as a subway at less cost.

[cacto]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

Hi everyone! This is a continuation of the popular subway series I have been doing for a while on city-data. Despite Phoenix being the 6th largest city in the country, it does not have a subway system like other large cities such as Chicago and Philadelphia. With Phoenix being among the fastest growing in the country, do you think Phoenix will ever build a subway system? If so, when?

Hope not.

[stevek64]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

Look at Los Angeles as a prime example. It is a very spread out city yet it choose to invest in a subway system and it has clearly paid off as ridership has grown despite the huge backlash it received back in the early 1990's when it was being constructed.

I think building a subway in a region that is on/near a major fault line, is shall we say nicely, not very prudent.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

[Burning Madolf]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

Subway systems are the pinnacle of mass transit efficiency for cities. Phoenix is a large city, so I can't help but compare it to other large cities with subway systems.

If subway is all you can see then I can without hesitation say you will not see one in Phoenix for at least the next fifty years (I would say never, but never say never). The cost is way too much for this area.

[beTucsonan]

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

Just because your city is spread out doesn't mean that it can't invest in a subway system for the future. Look at Los Angeles as a prime example. It is a very spread out city yet it choose to invest in a subway system and it has clearly paid off as ridership has grown despite the huge backlash it received back in the early 1990's when it was being constructed.

LA is more than twice as population dense as Phoenix is. 7,544 compared to 3,165 people per square mile. The example as a basic comparison doesn't hold water. Ridership also does not equate to "success" when such huge costs are concerned - the recent expansion cost $40-billion dollars, a number which would inarguably be a difficult pill for Phoenix to swallow (consider that LA's GDP is nearly $800-billion, while Phoenix comes in around $200 - quite a difference in what a city can/should afford to do). And that was simply an expansion - the cost to start from scratch would obviously be much higher.

Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly

For Pittsburgh's situation, it doesn't get the proper state funding for transportation. If the city got the proper funding, the city subway wouldn't be a financial nightmare for the city.

Passing the buck up to the state doesn't make the project feasible, it just means someone else wastes money on it.

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by Jukesgrrl

Our politics might be as weird as Florida's, but we're not idiots here. We know we're #6 in the nation in population (virtually tied with Philadelphia) and we're growing much faster than East Coast cities. The issue of mass transportation has been studied very carefully and for decades. The region has made a commitment in the form of your "huge investment" to light rail as the most cost effective solution to the issue. It's working great so far and there are plans to expand it.

As kell490 astutely pointed out, the salient fact is that Maricopa County is larger than the state of New Jersey. Would you think it would be cost effective to fund a subway line that would go from Newark to Cape May? In Philadelphia you have a regional railway system that transports people from Center City to places like Media, Doylestown, and even Trenton. We don't have any such thing here, since Arizona wasn't even a state until the 20th century.

I think your confusing commuter rail with subway systems. To compare New Jersey to Maricopa County is apples to oranges. New Jersey already has an extensive rail network. New Jersey consist of both New York suburbs(North Jersey) and Philadelphia suburbs(South Jersey) while Maricopa County is only Phoenix suburbs. Yes, Philadelphia has commuter rail service but also subway, intercity rail, light rail, trolleys, and buses.

Philadelphia hasn't seen fit to extend its own underground subway into the suburbs. It's supplemented by buses, trolleys, the high-speed rail to Norristown, etc. Why are you so excited to see other cities get underground transportation when it is so rarely cost-effective outside of center cities?

Providing Public Transportation Alternatives for the Greater Phoenix Metro Area | Valley Metro |

That's not entirely true. The Blue line has two stations in the suburbs and most of the red line(PATCO) serves the suburbs. These stations I'm showing you are not in the city limits of Philly but the suburbs.

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by stevek64

I think building a subway in a region that is on/near a major fault line, is shall we say nicely, not very prudent.

I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

All it requires is smart transit oriented development.

[Bondurant]

We have light rail and that alone has caused enough controversy. There will never be a subway in Phoenix. Like it or not, it's the way it is.