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Old 01-08-2008, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Inside the 101
2,762 posts, read 7,383,404 times
Reputation: 3197

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Notice that after several days the OP has not rejoined the conversation. There's been no response to some of the clarifying questions posed by me and others. I'm wondering if this thread is any of the following:

1) a test to see how Phoenicians react when their city is compared to a city with a bad reputation

2) a joke, as suggested by a few

3) a way of settling a bet

Reckoner, are you out there?

 
Old 01-08-2008, 11:46 AM
 
Location: FINALLY living in AZ and LOVING it!!!
461 posts, read 1,805,385 times
Reputation: 191
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
Notice that after several days the OP has not rejoined the conversation. There's been no response to some of the clarifying questions posed by me and others. I'm wondering if this thread is any of the following:

1) a test to see how Phoenicians react when their city is compared to a city with a bad reputation

2) a joke, as suggested by a few

3) a way of settling a bet

Reckoner, are you out there?
You're probably right. I don't understand why anyone would do that.
 
Old 01-08-2008, 11:56 AM
 
6,590 posts, read 5,838,491 times
Reputation: 16783
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve22 View Post
Detroit vs. Phoenix?... Hmmm, would you prefer death by hanging, or firing squad? Having lived for extensive periods of my life in both places, I have to say that given the choice, I'd choose an emphatic neither. Think I'll stay in Colorado, thanks.

Although I will say that there's one thing they have in abundance in MI that will become a valuable commodity in the near future, one which may eventually reverse the current demographic shift to the southwest: fresh water. This article just posted in the Detroit News yesterday is rather topical, and worth a look:

A nation's growing thirst threatens a Great Lakes water war (http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080107/METRO/801070366/-1/ARCHIVE - broken link)
Eventually, desalination plants will address the water problem in the west. There's no other choice. The water tables are getting lower, and there's plenty of ocean to go around.
 
Old 01-08-2008, 01:53 PM
 
435 posts, read 1,572,192 times
Reputation: 330
Quote:
Originally Posted by blisterpeanuts View Post
Eventually, desalination plants will address the water problem in the west. There's no other choice. The water tables are getting lower, and there's plenty of ocean to go around.
The question,, IMO, isn't whether or not the water shortage problem in the American west will be solved; I have no doubt that it will. The question is whether or not it will be a cheap solution, one that will make it financially feasible for middle- to low-income families to continue living in the region. I can tell you that desalination of ocean water is not, by any means, a cheap solution.

Take a good look at Santa Barbara as an example. In the '80's, Santa Barbara was the southwestern boomtown du jour- it was growing like gangbusters (much to the chagrin of locals), and it seemed everyone was trying to move there. Then, the region suffered a huge drought, and water supplies began running dangerously low. So as a solution, they instilled a desalination plant, and voila- problem solved. Only problem was, the exorbitant expense of producing fresh water that way caused city taxes & utilities to skyrocket, which in addition to the hugely appreciating real estate values essentially made it an unreasonably expensive place to live for the average person & effectively put the kaibosh on the rapid growth it was experiencing. To this day, S.B. remains one of the very most expensive & exclusive communities in the U.S. in which to live, and the water costs are one of the reasons why.

One obvious thing that S.B. has going for it that Phoenix doesn't, which helps keep the cost of desalination down at least somewhat, is that it's a coastal community. So at least there aren't water transportation costs on top of the processing cost. If such a solution were to be implemented in AZ, you can see that the transportation expense would add even more to an already pricy solution. And for that matter, any other means of transporting water from some other region of the country which might be tried- including the Great Lakes- would be expensive enough that in addition to gas prices, electric bills, etc. it would effectively price a whole lot of folks out of living anywhere which relied on such a mechanism for fresh water supply.

Consider the peak oil issue we're sure to be facing soon, and you're opening up a huge ball of wax that I don't even want to get into. But suffice it to say that as a result of the soon-to-be exorbitant costs of living, I see Phoenix in 20 years as being a community consisting basically of two classes of people: the filthy rich and the impoverished, with virtually no middle class. In the future in the desert SW, there will be those who can afford to stay and live well, and those who can't afford to leave, and not much in between. That's my theory, anyway.

Last edited by steve22; 01-08-2008 at 03:09 PM..
 
Old 01-08-2008, 02:16 PM
 
Location: Michigan
334 posts, read 1,367,859 times
Reputation: 150
I hate seeing this thread bashing these two places. I've never been to AZ but hear good things about it. Yes Detroit has it's problems with unemployment and crime, but it def. is a funky fun city. I've heard Phoenix has gang problems too. Where else can you see wild trees growing out of skycrapers, and so much urban ruins, but also revitalization? There's so much history in Detroit, and a large collection of beautiful 1920's skycrapers. Sporting news didn't recently name Detroit as the country's best sports city for no reason. Hopefully I'll get down to AZ someday and checkout the sites there.

Nights in DETROIT - a photoset on Flickr (http://www.flickr.com/photos/southen/sets/72057594058185186/ - broken link)
 
Old 01-08-2008, 04:32 PM
 
919 posts, read 3,384,020 times
Reputation: 585
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve22 View Post
The question,, IMO, isn't whether or not the water shortage problem in the American west will be solved; I have no doubt that it will. The question is whether or not it will be a cheap solution, one that will make it financially feasible for middle- to low-income families to continue living in the region. I can tell you that desalination of ocean water is not, by any means, a cheap solution.

Take a good look at Santa Barbara as an example. In the '80's, Santa Barbara was the southwestern boomtown du jour- it was growing like gangbusters (much to the chagrin of locals), and it seemed everyone was trying to move there. Then, the region suffered a huge drought, and water supplies began running dangerously low. So as a solution, they instilled a desalination plant, and voila- problem solved. Only problem was, the exorbitant expense of producing fresh water that way caused city taxes & utilities to skyrocket, which in addition to the hugely appreciating real estate values essentially made it an unreasonably expensive place to live for the average person & effectively put the kaibosh on the rapid growth it was experiencing. To this day, S.B. remains one of the very most expensive & exclusive communities in the U.S. in which to live, and the water costs are one of the reasons why.

One obvious thing that S.B. has going for it that Phoenix doesn't, which helps keep the cost of desalination down at least somewhat, is that it's a coastal community. So at least there aren't water transportation costs on top of the processing cost. If such a solution were to be implemented in AZ, you can see that the transportation expense would add even more to an already pricy solution. And for that matter, any other means of transporting water from some other region of the country which might be tried- including the Great Lakes- would be expensive enough that in addition to gas prices, electric bills, etc. it would effectively price a whole lot of folks out of living anywhere which relied on such a mechanism for fresh water supply.

Consider the peak oil issue we're sure to be facing soon, and you're opening up a huge ball of wax that I don't even want to get into. But suffice it to say that as a result of the soon-to-be exorbitant costs of living, I see Phoenix in 20 years as being a community consisting basically of two classes of people: the filthy rich and the impoverished, with virtually no middle class. In the future in the desert SW, there will be those who can afford to stay and live well, and those who can't afford to leave, and not much in between. That's my theory, anyway.
You must be a shock and awe teaser writer for some local TV news station... "Coming up next: Will Mad Max save the Southwest?"

The Santa Barbara residential water rate costs 65 cents more per unit than the comperable amount in Phoenix. 65 cents. And that's not per gallon. That's per 748 gallons. So in both cities, for less than a $3 cafe mocha, one can get 748 gallons of H20. To imply that costlier water slowed the growth of SB is just crazy. It aint the cost of water, it's the cost of housing/land because it's a playground for the super rich. If one can afford a $50 million house like Oprah bought in the area, or one of the more modest (avg. priced) ones for $1 Million, the tapwater bill isn't a deciding factor in the buying decision to live there.
 
Old 01-08-2008, 05:58 PM
 
225 posts, read 959,958 times
Reputation: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumblina View Post
West Bloomfield can be a nightmare because there are a lot of very rude and snobby people who live there (much like people accuse Scottsdale of having). I think you'll find that no matter where you live. These people are definitely the minorty though. I live in West Bloomfield, but I am neither rude nor wealthy. There is some nightlife, but WB is known more for its lakes, bike paths, parks, etc. However, no one really "hangs out" in Birmingham at night either. There's no real nightlife there either. The place most young, single people go is Royal Oak. Ann Arbor is a college town, so I wouldn't use that as a comparison either. The hotel the Lakers stayed at in Birmingham is called the Townsend and it is BEAUTIFUL. Not a large, trendy resort, as it is in the middle of downtown Birmgham, but very classy and swanky. I have met many celebrities there. Like I said, both Scottsdale and West Bloomfield have much to offer, but they are very, very different types of cities. It's like comparing apples to oranges. Actually, as far as wealth goes, Bloomfield Hills and Birmingham would top WB any day. And, if you're looking for trendy bars and shopping, downtown B'ham is where you'd go.
You will have to forgive me because I meant to say Royal Oak not Birmingham. The hotel I saw was in Royal Oak. I think I went to a nice Borders book store in Birmingham once; I think that's where I got the names confused. LOL

I loved the lakes in West Bloomfield. It's nice to have these amazing houses sit right on the lake and then you can waterski on them in the summer. It looks really nice. There are some places like that in Phoenix near Ocotillo. We looked for houses there. All the lake houses in Ocotillo are not for sale. Apparently some Cardinal football player paid 5 million for a home on one of the lakes that allows watercraft.
 
Old 01-08-2008, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Michigan
334 posts, read 1,367,859 times
Reputation: 150
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
Notice that after several days the OP has not rejoined the conversation. There's been no response to some of the clarifying questions posed by me and others. I'm wondering if this thread is any of the following:

1) a test to see how Phoenicians react when their city is compared to a city with a bad reputation

2) a joke, as suggested by a few

3) a way of settling a bet

Reckoner, are you out there?
I'm not trying to be rude but what has Phoenix really done for this country? Detroit has influenced America and the world with the automobile, music, and during WII was called the "arsenal of democracy" because hard working Detroiters built the Sherman tanks, planes, jeeps needed to win the war. People kick Detroit now that it's down, but in 1928 before the depression nobody knew such a prosperous city that reached almost 2 million would decline so much. I'm sure Phoenix won't boom forever, at least not with having major problems in the future.
 
Old 01-08-2008, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Mesa, Az
21,144 posts, read 42,003,834 times
Reputation: 3861
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent85 View Post
I'm not trying to be rude but what has Phoenix really done for this country? Detroit has influenced America and the world with the automobile, music, and during WII was called the "arsenal of democracy" because hard working Detroiters built the Sherman tanks, planes, jeeps needed to win the war. People kick Detroit now that it's down, but in 1928 before the depression nobody knew such a prosperous city that reached almost 2 million would decline so much. I'm sure Phoenix won't boom forever, at least not with having major problems in the future.
Truth?

World War II may have done severe damage to the prestige of the 4 season sections of the USA------many servicemen shipping out from Detroit, Cleveland, etc. to California for deployment to the Pacific theater saw the gorgeous 'endless summer' weather and were enchanted.

No more shoveling snow, etc.
 
Old 01-08-2008, 06:29 PM
 
225 posts, read 959,958 times
Reputation: 143
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumblina View Post
First of all, you're comparing more of the State of AZ to Detroit. So to be fair, let's compare Michigan to AZ. Duh, the Super Bowl was hosted by Detroit last year. Detroit Lions and Tigers have brand new stadiums. The Red Wings are probably the best hockey team there is (although Steve-O will totally disagree, but we've brought home Stanley more times than the BlackHawks will ever dream of). Oakland Hills Country Club (in Bloomfield Hills) will be hosting the 2008 PGA Championship and of course the Buick Open is held in Flint, MI every year. A short hop to a beach? You call hours a short hop? We are within WALKING distance of beaches. In fact, I have one right across the street from my house. Day trip for skiing? Some in Michigan are only an hour away. I'm about 15 minutes, although you'd never catch me skiing or doing anything outside in the winter. Biking? Michigan probably has more bike/hike trails throughout the state than AZ does and no one needs to travel. I can ride my bike to bike trails that are in beautiful nature areas, passing lakes and parks, etc. What rivers and lakes do you have in Phoenix that are within walking distance?

I will not defend the City of Detroit, as it is a complete sewer hole, but you're actually comparing AZ to MI and that's not what's being compared on this post - It's Detroit v Phoenix and with that there is no comparison - Phoenix wins hands down. So please DO NOT start bashing on the entire State of Michigan! Keep this a comparison of Detroit to Phoenix as the OP intended.
Wait a second... ...

There is a major difference between an Ocean beach and a Lake beach. We have lakes as well but that's not what he was referring to. Phoenix is 2.5 hours from Rocky Point Mexico and 4 hours from San Diego. Let's be honest, a 4 hour car trip to San Diego is much nicer than driving 15 minutes to some beach on a random lake. And many of the lakes you are referring particularly in West Bloomfield are not even true lakes but oversized ponds. Many of those lakes are shallow and barely 20 ft deep. Phoenix has lakes like that as well in addition to large lakes like Lake Pleasant. Laka Havasu is a major recreational resort lake that many high school and college students drive to all over the country to party; there is no such lake resort like that with the same recognition in Michigan. And the hiking and biking trails are far superior in Arizona whether you are talking about nationally famous trails such as the ones found in the Grand Canyon and Sedona to less known but fun ones in Camelback mountain and Flagstaff. I've been skiing at Crystal Mountain in Michigan. It was about as nice if not better than Sunrise or Showlow in terms of size and development. The difference is the weather conditions make the skiing far less pleasurable in Michigan beause it's much colder and offers less sun. And unlike you guys, we are only 4 hours from Big Bear resort in southern California which trumps those resorts in Michigan any day. What famous ski resort can you leave for on Saturday morning and get there by the afternoon?
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