What Phoenix Lacks is.... (Scottsdale, Tempe: budget, trip , college)

[Chinolala]

Originally Posted by yakijy

Actually, I find a lot more places to walk about in the Phoenix area than someplace like Chicago. There are trails around the zoo, small lakes and parks to fish or walk. Malls are much better here. Desert Ridge has free music every weekend. I walk my dog regularly 4 blocks to the park off-leash, and can do it 9 months out of the year. In Chicago I would go around the block, but not much more - too many lights, traffic. There's much more a feel of empty space here. You can be absolutely alone in a number of places pretty easily.

The theme here are places to people watch, not be alone. People surely don't live in Chicago if they want a lot of outdoor alone time. When we want that, we hang out in our backyards or head to Wisconsin, Michigan or rural Illinois for a weekend of it. But if you want to be able to get by without a car, walk for miles, window shop, sip coffee or wine in an outdoor cafe, walk along miles and miles of lakefront, etc. Chicago is it.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by lisak64

The theme here are places to people watch, not be alone. People surely don't live in Chicago if they want a lot of outdoor alone time. When we want that, we hang out in our backyards or head to Wisconsin, Michigan or rural Illinois for a weekend of it. But if you want to be able to get by without a car, walk for miles, window shop, sip coffee or wine in an outdoor cafe, walk along miles and miles of lakefront, etc. Chicago is it.

Lisa - you make a very valid point. Again, each are / city has it's own qualities.

As an aside - if you want to "get away" - on the South Rim of the Grand Canyon, there are trails -- within site of the Canyon. No coffee stands - no window shopping - just quiet with maybe the sound of an American eagle and the sound of the wind to keep you company.

[vegaspilgrim]

Currently, the ONLY place in the Phoenix area that consistently has a critical mass of people walking around both day and night is Mill Ave in Tempe. Mill Ave is not really my "scene," actually it kind of repulses me, but I go there nonetheless just to take a walk and people watch. Old Town Scottsdale comes in second-- there are some people walking around, but not that many, and compared to downtown Tempe, downtown Scottsdale is much more spread out and "hollow." I think gradually Old Town Scottsdale will become more dense with more people walking around. Unfortunately, there is nowhere in the entire city of Phoenix has a consistent critical mass of pedestrians. Places like Roosevelt st on first Fridays become active for that moment in time, or people walking from the parking garage to Chase Field, but it's only sporadic activity.

What Phoenix REALLY lacks though is a landscaped, public park with grass and tons of shade trees. In theory, there's no reason it couldn't have such a park-- despite being in the desert-- after all, there are probably millions of trees planted in people's backyards, and thousands and thousands of acres of golf courses. It will probably never happen, not due to logistics, but because there simply isn't a will. Until then, there's the desert preserves, neighborhood playground/athletics facilities parks, and Papago Park.

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Imagine the level of greatness Phoenix would attain if it combined the two types of walkability?

Should that happen, AZ will be one of the greatest places in the world and a lot of us may not be able to afford it anymore!

Phoenix does have more enjoyable somewhat urban pockets, though. Now I've placed my hopes on Westcor who's much hated down here. Imagine something nice coming ... total disaster! The Ol' Pueblo is going downhill!

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by londonbarcelona

What an excellent comparison. I agree, "walkable" means different things to everyone. I prefer the "walkable" street like you. I LOVE Europe because of it!

Well, I'm obviously biased, but I'm glad there are some native-born Americans who appreciate it.

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by lisak64

The theme here are places to people watch, not be alone. People surely don't live in Chicago if they want a lot of outdoor alone time. When we want that, we hang out in our backyards or head to Wisconsin, Michigan or rural Illinois for a weekend of it. But if you want to be able to get by without a car, walk for miles, window shop, sip coffee or wine in an outdoor cafe, walk along miles and miles of lakefront, etc. Chicago is it.

I think historically the West has attracted loners... people who just wanna be left alone... people who don't want interaction with other people. I have a coworker whose family is into horses, raising pigs, etc. They move any time "civilization" dares to reach them.

Also, most of the West was built after cars became common household item, so it was built around them and for them. Walking is not socially acceptable... We don't have sidewalks. Occasionally, I park somewhere and attempt to walk a few more enjoyable strip malls, let's say. Everybody looks at you as if you have two heads! Makes you feel like a bum or a hooker...

IMO there are other reasons for the destruction of downtowns and general sense of community. Because there were downtowns here. I've seen pictures of Tucson from the 40s. It looks like a normal town. I'm sure that's the case in Phoenix, too. The isolation of people fits much deeper agendas, but this isn't the time or the place to discuss it.

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Currently, the ONLY place in the Phoenix area that consistently has a critical mass of people walking around both day and night is Mill Ave in Tempe. Mill Ave is not really my "scene," actually it kind of repulses me, but I go there nonetheless just to take a walk and people watch.

Same here... Sometimes I go to dead downtown (seems like all this otherwise nice area was built for the transients) or 4th Ave to watch dirty folks with dreadlocks for the same reasons. I even go to Nogales. Not that a border town is exactly my cup of tea, but it feels like "normal" town. Just went there on Sat. Needed a little change of scenery. Dodging the street vendors is no doubt annoying, but having lunch and a cup of coffee in a somewhat "city" environment makes up for it. At least I don't see every few feet signs about what to do and what not to do. That's bound to change soon enough, though. Ooops, that's a whole other can of worms!

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by sierraAZ

Same here... Sometimes I go to dead downtown (seems like all this otherwise nice area was built for the transients) or 4th Ave to watch dirty folks with dreadlocks for the same reasons. I even go to Nogales. Not that a border town is exactly my cup of tea, but it feels like "normal" town. Just went there on Sat. Needed a little change of scenery. Dodging the street vendors is no doubt annoying, but having lunch and a cup of coffee in a somewhat "city" environment makes up for it. At least I don't see every few feet signs about what to do and what not to do. That's bound to change soon enough, though. Ooops, that's a whole other can of worms!

Nogales-- now that's an interesting idea! Are you talking about the Arizona side or the Mexico side? Do you think it's worth going down there to check it out?

[sierraAZ]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Nogales-- now that's an interesting idea! Are you talking about the Arizona side or the Mexico side? Do you think it's worth going down there to check it out?

I don't spend much time on the American side. Just park there and walk over. The duty-free shop is about my only pit stop.

On the other side there's a quite lively main drag and some other side streets with various shops. It's actually a pretty big city, but that's the only area I spend time in. There are a few little squares, a church, a school...

Here are a few pictures to give you an idea what it looks like:





I have a favorite restaurant and a favorite coffee shop. The restaurant's name is El Oasis. I like sitting on their balcony over a busy intersection. I don't generally like Mexican food and the first few times I went there I was ordering some stupid steak and fries... just to fill my stomach with something... when I saw something interesting being brought to the table next to us! I want what they're having, I said! It wasn't even on the English menu (they had another location which closed many years ago - that's where I first discovered it). The dish looked like a bubbling stew in a stone ball (same balls they use to crush corn). It's called molcajete (my understanding is that molcajete is actually not the name of the dish, but of the ball). I think it was called just molcajete at first... then it was changed to Fajita de Molcajete. It can be ordered with beef, chicken, shrimp, etc. The rest consists of ham, bacon, cheese, and a very yummy sauce. Looks pretty much like this, but it comes bubbling and stays warm till you're finished.



As a new American I couldn't eat even half of it , but now can take good care of it all! Then I walk my stuffed tummy some more, have a cappuccino in a cute courtyard cafe, and head back.

Nogales used to get a lot more American visitors on weekends in the past. Many were going for prescription meds, too. It was funny to watch in the afternoon people carrying many bags crossing their respective border... thinking they got the best deal on the other side. The common "greener pastures" mentality we all have! With the instilled paranoia of recent years and the required American prescription for the meds, the flocking dwindled significantly. For this reason everybody gets the vendors' undivided attention! If you go as a couple, you'll be welcomed by "hey, honeymooners!" and be offered Viagra for some odd reason. The other day I found out I still qualify for the "supermodel discount." "Seniorita, let me show you my junk... it's beautiful junk... not as beautiful as your eyes, but still beautiful!" If you go for the first time, it's fun... after a while it gets old. I totally understand they have to make a living, too, but you practically can't walk down the streets in peace. This time (since I was by myself) I tried a new trick a few times and it worked - "no ingles, no espanol!" They just can't comprehend why people like you and me would go down there... They think you're there for shopping alone.

If you decide to go, gimme a holler. I'll tell you where exactly the goodies are. It's not for everybody, but judging by what I've read from you, you'd probably enjoy at least one visit.

Oh, btw, overheard something at the border about the need for birth certificates next month, so take your passport just in case. This requirement was supposed to come into effect much later... I'm sure it'll be announced in the local papers when time comes.

[vegaspilgrim]

Wow, great post, sierraAZ! Not sure if I want to go there, but great read! Isn't that ironic that living in AZ, you have to go to another country just to get an "urban fix"?