Photo Radar Advice (Scottsdale: floor, safer, drivers license)

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Bummer

. OBEY THE LAWS. Don't Speed and Don't Run Red Lights

Ah, another Dudley Do-Right. There's an intersection near the Chinese Cultural Center, where, if I'm the very first car in line and floor it as soon as the light turns green, I still cannot get across the intersection before it turns red. How would a camera there make things any safer? If I'm on my motorcycle and some soccer mom in her huge SUV is chatting her cell phone behind me, do you think I'm gonna slam on my brakes for a yellow light so I can avoid the ticket while the lady plows into me? No thanks. Red light cameras often cause more accidents than they prevent because of panic stops. The camera vans are nothing but a revenue generator. Why else do they hide? If they want folks to slow down, they'd make themselves conspicuous, if not put up signs warning folks to slow down.

Luckily, I also have an excellent radar detector and will be upgrading soon to the Escort 9500i, which I suspect the previous poster is talking about. And I fight all tickets (been a long time since I got one), just to make sure the state loses more money than they'll ever get out of me.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Ah, another Dudley Do-Right. There's an intersection near the Chinese Cultural Center, where, if I'm the very first car in line and floor it as soon as the light turns green, I still cannot get across the intersection before it turns red. How would a camera there make things any safer? If I'm on my motorcycle and some soccer mom in her huge SUV is chatting her cell phone behind me, do you think I'm gonna slam on my brakes for a yellow light so I can avoid the ticket while the lady plows into me? No thanks. Red light cameras often cause more accidents than they prevent because of panic stops. The camera vans are nothing but a revenue generator. Why else do they hide? If they want folks to slow down, they'd make themselves conspicuous, if not put up signs warning folks to slow down.

Luckily, I also have an excellent radar detector and will be upgrading soon to the Escort 9500i, which I suspect the previous poster is talking about. And I fight all tickets (been a long time since I got one), just to make sure the state loses more money than they'll ever get out of me.

What you describe at the Chinese center is NOT a red light violation. Learn the law, obey the law or pay your fines without whimpering like a child if you get caught. You could also lobby for lagging left arrows as they reduce both violations and accidents.

[Bummer]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

Luckily, I also have an excellent radar detector and will be upgrading soon to the Escort 9500i, which I suspect the previous poster is talking about. And I fight all tickets (been a long time since I got one), just to make sure the state loses more money than they'll ever get out of me.

Nowhere did I include legally "fighting a citation" as bad advice, Rick, as there may be extenuating circumstances in many cases, especially the ones you have just mentioned.

However, I'll stick by my reference to the immature (read: CHILDISH) advice as being BLATANT BS and IRRESPONSIBLE.

[Rick Lee]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

What you describe at the Chinese center is NOT a red light violation. Learn the law, obey the law or pay your fines without whimpering like a child if you get caught. You could also lobby for lagging left arrows as they reduce both violations and accidents.

How is being in an intersection when the light turns red not a violation? How else do they program the cameras? To snap the photo a few seconds after the light has turned red?

One time I got snapped in VA, but was midway through my U-turn, so the camera got the side of my car and no plate number. I was making a legal U-turn, sitting in the middle of the intersection, waiting my turn. The oncoming car, as usual, did not use a turn signal and was turning left. So I had to wait until he made it clear he was turning before I could begin my turn. That's when I got snapped. Now, had a live cop seen that, he'd have never even thought of pulling me over. But the camera tried to get me.

I don't fight tickets because of extenuating circumstances. I do it to take a little incentive out of the revenue generation that's behind 99% of ticket writing. There's no reason in the world I should not be able to drive as fast as I want when I'm the only car on a desert hwy. That a cop hides behind some brush and uses instant-on radar to get money instead of putting his car somewhere conspicuous in a place that needs some traffic enforcement just proves that it's all about money. Even the handful of times I've lost in court, I know I've cost the state plenty more than they got out of me. Once I even filed an appeal and made this little hick town send the cop to downtown Pittsburgh. Probably cost them half a day in overtime for that one, not to mention that the cop was not on the street writing tickets in that time too.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

How is being in an intersection when the light turns red not a violation? How else do they program the cameras? To snap the photo a few seconds after the light has turned red?

One time I got snapped in VA, but was midway through my U-turn, so the camera got the side of my car and no plate number. I was making a legal U-turn, sitting in the middle of the intersection, waiting my turn. The oncoming car, as usual, did not use a turn signal and was turning left. So I had to wait until he made it clear he was turning before I could begin my turn. That's when I got snapped. Now, had a live cop seen that, he'd have never even thought of pulling me over. But the camera tried to get me.

I don't fight tickets because of extenuating circumstances. I do it to take a little incentive out of the revenue generation that's behind 99% of ticket writing. There's no reason in the world I should not be able to drive as fast as I want when I'm the only car on a desert hwy. That a cop hides behind some brush and uses instant-on radar to get money instead of putting his car somewhere conspicuous in a place that needs some traffic enforcement just proves that it's all about money. Even the handful of times I've lost in court, I know I've cost the state plenty more than they got out of me. Once I even filed an appeal and made this little hick town send the cop to downtown Pittsburgh. Probably cost them half a day in overtime for that one, not to mention that the cop was not on the street writing tickets in that time too.

ENTERING the intersection on a red light is what is illegal. As long you are in the intersection you are OK and you have the right of way over cross traffic. The cameras are programmed to activate when the light goes red. They take your picture only if your car trips the sensor by entering the intersection AFTER the light is red.

As far as driving as fast as you wanted on a deserted road, you have a point and AZ law sort of agrees with you. AZ does not have a speed limit law per se, it is reasonable and prudent (except in zones like school and construction). When you are cited it is for driving faster than is R&P (see original post). If you can convince a magistrate that going 95 mph on a deserted road is R&P the ticket will be dismissed. Good luck.

[Bummer]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

I don't fight tickets because of extenuating circumstances. I do it to take a little incentive out of the revenue generation that's behind 99% of ticket writing.

Impressive stance, Rick . . . and you refer to me as Dudley Do-Right?

Maybe your tune will change if, God Forbid, you are involved in an accident with either major injuries or, even worse, death due to an inconsiderate, first person singular, immature driver either speeding or running a red light.

Believe me, it happens and it happens far too often.

[Rick Lee]

Speeding does not cause accidents. Speed DELTA and inattentive drivers cause accidents. And since cops don't write tickets for slow pokes in the left lane, they ain't making the roads any safer by hiding out and running instant-on radar, trying to catch either a lone speeder or the fastest guy in the pack of cars that's already doing 20 over. That's revenue generation.

Running red lights is also not stopped by cameras. We had them in Fairfax County, in Virginia and they finally did away with them because they found there were MORE accidents at intersections once the cameras were put there. Folks would panic stop when they realized there was a camera there and rear end someone or cause the guy behind them to do it. By contrast, in Washington DC, they only put red light cameras out in the wealthier neighborhoods, since they knew those folks were more likely to pay up. It has nothing to do with safety.

BTW, I was rear ended twice in three months, once in DC and once in VA. Both times the drivers were not paying attention at all and I was sitting at an intersection, boxed in, knowing they were gonna hit me and knowing I couldn't do anything about it. No red light cameras did anything there.

The last time I was hit, I could actually see in my rearview mirror the girl mouth the words, "Ach *******e!" before she hit me. She was a German au pair and was going back home forever four days later. Thank God, she was on her host family's insurance and all ended well. However, the cop told me couldn't think of anything to cite her with. I said, "How about failure to maintain control of her vehicle?" He said she wouldn't go to court, wouldn't pay the fine and wasn't gonna be in the U.S. anymore. So there was no point in it. Yup, cops sure make things safer.

[Bummer]

Once again, Rick . . . TWO WRONGS DO NOT A RIGHT MAKE!

Statistics over the last year here in Tucson clearly indicate a significant reduction in accidents at the three intersections with Red Light Cameras. One intersection reflects a reduction of approximately 50% so your claims are absolutely unfounded.

My final comment on this subject.

[tnp]

Originally Posted by Rick Lee

We had them in Fairfax County, in Virginia and they finally did away with them because they found there were MORE accidents at intersections once the cameras were put there. Folks would panic stop when they realized there was a camera there and rear end someone or cause the guy behind them to do it.

I just heard the same thing on the news tonight about the cameras we have in TN. They said there were more accidents once the cameras were put there, for the same reason you mentioned.

[joninaz]

I'm not sure if the cameras add or subtract from the accident totals. It doesn't seem to help nab the asshat drivers who we all experience weaving lane to lane, aggresive tailgating, etc., with never a cop nearby.

My issue with cameras is more philosophical. We're allowing a whole new slippery slope of justice.

- We used to be able to face our accuser in court. Hard to do with a machine.
- Law enforcement was a police function, now it's a city council decision.
- Law enforcement was also a police function, but is now be contracted to privated companies. The extreme DUI guy arrested last week was empowered by local govt. to set up and callibrate the checkpoint issuing you tickets.
- Courts should be independent of city budgets. But a judge ruling on your case is being funded by the prosecution. We once valued impartiality, but our judges have skin in the game and it's fiscally prudent for them to rule against you.
- The whole system is designed to make it easier to pay fees and get off, rather than actually fight or make an issue of things.
- The laws are not equally applied. Govt cars - free pass. Company cars - free pass. Rental cars - free pass. Most lawyers now register their cars under their company names these days. They can run 27 red lights and go 130 MPH by every camera... and never get a ticket. Same with your mayor, most likely. And any company owner with an ounce of sense.
- Have the cameras allowed cops to focus on other crimes? For example, have they been catching more reckless drivers as they've not been burdened with ticket writing for simpler things?

I'm all for ticketing and driving enforcement, but I'm also a big fan of fair laws.