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Old 04-18-2008, 03:08 PM
 
11 posts, read 38,006 times
Reputation: 10
Ya they have to serve you in person. I dont know of one single legal document that doesnt have to be served in person. Who's to say I got it? Regular parcel post doesnt cut it.
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Old 05-17-2008, 05:07 PM
 
2 posts, read 24,572 times
Reputation: 16
Default Are We All Wimps?

People, people, people why are you letting these municipalities scare us in a corner and do what they tell us to do? These robots (photo radars) they use against us is doing exactly what they want and that is bring in more cash, and all of you know it but are to afraid to stand up for your legal rights. There are other ways to curb speeding if that is their real concern, but we all know the bottom line is how much money they can take from our pockets and I for one will fight them and the insurance companies who donate money to fund many of these robots. Don't tell me you don't think they are not profiting from this deal as well?

So far I have fought 3 tickets within the last 4 years and was able to get one dismissed, the other two were reduced fines. But it took them nine months to finally collect on those and it didn’t affect my driver’s record or my insurance. It was worth it! So even if you don’t get you case dismissed there is a good chance you could get a reduced fine, but the main thing is you can slow down a corrupt system and make them consider is this worth the headaches we are now getting.

Remember the commercial were everyone uses a Visa card and then one person uses a check that brings everything to a halt. That’s how we defeat these corrupt municipalities. We slow down their corrupt system to were there profit margins get smaller every day. That will get them to thinking if this is worth it. But as long as we stay in line like good little citizens who don’t exercise their legal rights, they win.

The reason most of us don't fight back is the fear we have in paying more in insurance premiums. Which is why we need to fight back and put these systems out of commission. As a matter of fact your credit score is more likely to affect your auto insurance premiums more so than your driving record, go figure.
If they can't scare us with raising our premiums what else can they use against us? Let's defeat the source of this nonsense and stop raising the white flag as if we have no choice. Who gave them this power anyway?

All I've read on this forum is wimps giving in and saying “I probably was speeding” and some who know they were not speeding but still giving in just to avoid their insurance premiums going up. You give in and pay just like they want you to, instead of saying this is America, what are my legal rights and what can I do about it. If more of us took this approach I promise you these robots would not stand a chance.

Think about this, if everyone that got a letter for photo radar violation would fight back against these robots they would go out of business because the cost to operate them would be too much. Right now the courts hope everyone pleads guilty and pay. That generates for them on average $170 free and clear for doing nothing but scaring you with a robot generated scare letter and photo that is suppose to prove you are guilty. And so far this works over 90% of the time. What a business!

Why don't they use this on all civil cases? Just send everyone a letter saying we know you committed this violation. We took your picture walking one day that proves we know who you are and because of that you are guilty so pay us a fine and you won't have to come to court. What a business. Isn't this what real gangsters use to do, scare people into paying?

But what if they actually had to do some work and prove their photo radar was legit. The cost to prove this is what they want to avoid. They would have to hire a person or Redflex would have to hire a person and charge the courts more for that service. It would also bring the court system to a standstill. Instead of processing 50 cases a day at $170 a pop they would be down to maybe 20 or less and that would compound over time. Now they can't deposit that $170 times 50 a day but 20 x $170 minus the $30 an hour they pay an employee or Redflex.

Each case could take 30 minutes or more which would take more money out of their pockets. And if you read Susan Kaylar's book "Smile for the Camera" and learn how to fight these robots, most of those cases will get dismissed, hurting their pockets even more! Come on we can do this!

Now their $170 for nothing is billed at $30 an hour meaning they lose the whole profit of that $170. They would then have to consider is it worth it to now only profit $30 for every photo radar or get rid of it altogether, because as they know if it isn't making money why have these robots in place.

You say some of the judges are in on the take and you are probably right. We need to protest a system that allows these judges to benefit from finding people guilty. Again this is America and we can protest and make changes happen if enough of us band together.

For those of you who think photo radar are so great please move to another country were you have no rights since you prefer not to exercise your legal rights here. The rest of us will stay and take back our country along with our legal rights in which our ancestor’s blood was shed.

Last edited by rockynaz; 05-17-2008 at 06:24 PM.. Reason: New info
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Old 05-17-2008, 11:43 PM
 
920 posts, read 2,038,481 times
Reputation: 525
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockynaz View Post
People, people, people why are you letting these municipalities scare us in a corner and do what they tell us to do? These robots (photo radars) they use against us is doing exactly what they want and that is bring in more cash, and all of you know it but are to afraid to stand up for your legal rights. There are other ways to curb speeding if that is their real concern, but we all know the bottom line is how much money they can take from our pockets and I for one will fight them and the insurance companies who donate money to fund many of these robots. Don't tell me you don't think they are not profiting from this deal as well?

So far I have fought 3 tickets within the last 4 years and was able to get one dismissed, the other two were reduced fines. But it took them nine months to finally collect on those and it didnít affect my driverís record or my insurance. It was worth it! So even if you donít get you case dismissed there is a good chance you could get a reduced fine, but the main thing is you can slow down a corrupt system and make them consider is this worth the headaches we are now getting.

Remember the commercial were everyone uses a Visa card and then one person uses a check that brings everything to a halt. Thatís how we defeat these corrupt municipalities. We slow down their corrupt system to were there profit margins get smaller every day. That will get them to thinking if this is worth it. But as long as we stay in line like good little citizens who donít exercise their legal rights, they win.

The reason most of us don't fight back is the fear we have in paying more in insurance premiums. Which is why we need to fight back and put these systems out of commission. As a matter of fact your credit score is more likely to affect your auto insurance premiums more so than your driving record, go figure.
If they can't scare us with raising our premiums what else can they use against us? Let's defeat the source of this nonsense and stop raising the white flag as if we have no choice. Who gave them this power anyway?

All I've read on this forum is wimps giving in and saying ďI probably was speedingĒ and some who know they were not speeding but still giving in just to avoid their insurance premiums going up. You give in and pay just like they want you to, instead of saying this is America, what are my legal rights and what can I do about it. If more of us took this approach I promise you these robots would not stand a chance.

Think about this, if everyone that got a letter for photo radar violation would fight back against these robots they would go out of business because the cost to operate them would be too much. Right now the courts hope everyone pleads guilty and pay. That generates for them on average $170 free and clear for doing nothing but scaring you with a robot generated scare letter and photo that is suppose to prove you are guilty. And so far this works over 90% of the time. What a business!

Why don't they use this on all civil cases? Just send everyone a letter saying we know you committed this violation. We took your picture walking one day that proves we know who you are and because of that you are guilty so pay us a fine and you won't have to come to court. What a business. Isn't this what real gangsters use to do, scare people into paying?

But what if they actually had to do some work and prove their photo radar was legit. The cost to prove this is what they want to avoid. They would have to hire a person or Redflex would have to hire a person and charge the courts more for that service. It would also bring the court system to a standstill. Instead of processing 50 cases a day at $170 a pop they would be down to maybe 20 or less and that would compound over time. Now they can't deposit that $170 times 50 a day but 20 x $170 minus the $30 an hour they pay an employee or Redflex.

Each case could take 30 minutes or more which would take more money out of their pockets. And if you read Susan Kaylar's book "Smile for the Camera" and learn how to fight these robots, most of those cases will get dismissed, hurting their pockets even more! Come on we can do this!

Now their $170 for nothing is billed at $30 an hour meaning they lose the whole profit of that $170. They would then have to consider is it worth it to now only profit $30 for every photo radar or get rid of it altogether, because as they know if it isn't making money why have these robots in place.

You say some of the judges are in on the take and you are probably right. We need to protest a system that allows these judges to benefit from finding people guilty. Again this is America and we can protest and make changes happen if enough of us band together.

For those of you who think photo radar are so great please move to another country were you have no rights since you prefer not to exercise your legal rights here. The rest of us will stay and take back our country along with our legal rights in which our ancestorís blood was shed.

So how about some actual advice? Do you simply avoid being served? If served, how to you pre-plea? What do you say? If it goes to trial, how do you argue with a judge who is paid from the funds from these cameras?

I agree that the system is BS in ways, but how do you beat it?
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:03 AM
 
2 posts, read 24,572 times
Reputation: 16
In all 3 of my cases I used the information from Susan Kaylar's book "Smile for the Camera", combined with other information from sites like this. You have to do your due diligence. What upsets me is people that don't prepare and walk into a courtroom and think the judge will listen to their sad story. You have to have facts to even have a chance to win or at least get your fine reduced. I will give them this much at least they tried to fight back, but please next time go prepared to put up a decent fight. Below are a few things that will help you.

To begin with, cities donít always deliver the tickets properly, yet most honest citizens are unaware that they donít have to respond to mailed tickets or to tickets left stuffed in their screen doors. Arizona law requires that traffic tickets be personally delivered by a process server or police officer.

You can avoid getting served by simply not answering the door, usually doing the evening. You only need to do this Mmark that date on your calendar and have some fun with it. I almost made it on my last ticket. I got served on my last day by mistake (long story, I was so mad). Bottom line is I try and make them jump through hoops to serve me otherwise they are breaking the law, not me.


How long does the city have to serve the ticket?

The ticket must be served by a process server or police officer within 120 days of when it is filed, however it must be filed within 60 days of when the violation took place. To be legal, the papers must be delivered to you personally or left with a member of your household who is of suitable age and resides with you. It is not legal to leave papers on the ground or in your door, nor is it legal to leave the papers with a housekeeper or guest.

For example, if you were not the driver and you tell the city who the driver is, the city has 60 days to file a new ticket with the name of the driver. If the ticket is filed after the 60 days, the case gets dismissed.

If the process server does not serve you within 120 days the case gets dismissed.

If you do get served then you must prepare a defense whether there are errors on the papers you were served with and questions regarding the equipment used to photo you. At one of my cases I came up with more than 20 legit questions about the photo cameras to put doubt in the judges head regarding photo radar. Read Susan's book it helped me tremendously. I was afraid to fight the system at first but after reading her book I realized I don't just have to take their BS.

Will my license get suspended?

For not responding to a mailed ticket---NO

For not identifying the driver---NO

For failing to respond after a ticket is served by a process server---YES

For not responding in some way if the process server leaves the papers at your front door---YES

For failing to pay a ticket---YES

Your license should never be suspended with a photo radar ticket, however, if the process server tells the court you were served and you don't appear on the date in the papers that were served, the court will suspend your license.
If the leave the papers illegally you must first bring the illegal service to the court's attention. Second, you must file a complaint about the process server. If you don't, it will happen to others, maybe even you, again and again. Go to the Supreme Court's website to fill out a complaint.

Regarding judges, they must hear your case and they must uphold the law. Yes, Arizona has a code of conduct that governs what a judge may do. One of the most important duties of a judge or hearing officer is to uphold the law. A judicial ethical opinion concludes that consistently ignoring the law can be grounds for removal of a judge from office.

If you give the judge legit reasons why he or she should question the validity of charges against you, that's when you have a decent chance of having your case dismissed or reduced.

It's like going to war, since they have this robot doing all their dirty work we must prove that this robot is not superior to humans and their word or evidence is not proof that they are always right. We find out these robots weaknesses and expose it to defeat it. Computers/robots are not always right either, just like humans are not always right.

Again, if more of us would go to court prepared to fight back for our legal rights, we can put photo radar systems out of business. Don't be afraid, your children will thank you for not letting robots dictate their futures.
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Old 05-18-2008, 01:13 PM
 
Location: 10110001010110100
5,130 posts, read 5,588,167 times
Reputation: 4080
This whole 'robot' talk sounds like a bad Isaac Asimov story or grounds to a lame version of the Terminator movie...
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Old 05-18-2008, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Full time RV"er
2,403 posts, read 3,355,944 times
Reputation: 1334
Quote:
Originally Posted by sablebaby View Post
Nope, I wasn't referring to your post about not wanting to pay. I started a new post to say my rant. You had problems with the speed showing up wrong and I suggested maybe your speedometer was off, which I guess wasn't the case. I was referring to the numerous people I hear complain and try to fight it when they clearly were in the wrong to begin with. I guess every system is flawed and sometimes we get caught in that flaw.
************ Wow! it goes on and on PLEASE no offence to every one here but i have been posting one way is to demand a verified complaint (They can't give you one so it goes away ) but that info is not comming from an Attorney , Even though i have helped 60+ people win . So i went LOOKING and found the answer from an Attorney (Whole law firm ) every one need to look at this site go on line to FOCUS ON PHOTO RADAR , an article by Susan Kayler. It answers all our questions.

Last edited by Fighter 1; 05-18-2008 at 02:51 PM..
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Old 05-18-2008, 03:10 PM
 
Location: Full time RV"er
2,403 posts, read 3,355,944 times
Reputation: 1334
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockynaz View Post
In all 3 of my cases I used the information from Susan Kaylar's book "Smile for the Camera", combined with other information from sites like this. You have to do your due diligence. What upsets me is people that don't prepare and walk into a courtroom and think the judge will listen to their sad story. You have to have facts to even have a chance to win or at least get your fine reduced. I will give them this much at least they tried to fight back, but please next time go prepared to put up a decent fight. Below are a few things that will help you.

To begin with, cities donít always deliver the tickets properly, yet most honest citizens are unaware that they donít have to respond to mailed tickets or to tickets left stuffed in their screen doors. Arizona law requires that traffic tickets be personally delivered by a process server or police officer.

You can avoid getting served by simply not answering the door, usually doing the evening. You only need to do this Mmark that date on your calendar and have some fun with it. I almost made it on my last ticket. I got served on my last day by mistake (long story, I was so mad). Bottom line is I try and make them jump through hoops to serve me otherwise they are breaking the law, not me.


How long does the city have to serve the ticket?

The ticket must be served by a process server or police officer within 120 days of when it is filed, however it must be filed within 60 days of when the violation took place. To be legal, the papers must be delivered to you personally or left with a member of your household who is of suitable age and resides with you. It is not legal to leave papers on the ground or in your door, nor is it legal to leave the papers with a housekeeper or guest.

For example, if you were not the driver and you tell the city who the driver is, the city has 60 days to file a new ticket with the name of the driver. If the ticket is filed after the 60 days, the case gets dismissed.

If the process server does not serve you within 120 days the case gets dismissed.

If you do get served then you must prepare a defense whether there are errors on the papers you were served with and questions regarding the equipment used to photo you. At one of my cases I came up with more than 20 legit questions about the photo cameras to put doubt in the judges head regarding photo radar. Read Susan's book it helped me tremendously. I was afraid to fight the system at first but after reading her book I realized I don't just have to take their BS.

Will my license get suspended?

For not responding to a mailed ticket---NO

For not identifying the driver---NO

For failing to respond after a ticket is served by a process server---YES

For not responding in some way if the process server leaves the papers at your front door---YES

For failing to pay a ticket---YES

Your license should never be suspended with a photo radar ticket, however, if the process server tells the court you were served and you don't appear on the date in the papers that were served, the court will suspend your license.
If the leave the papers illegally you must first bring the illegal service to the court's attention. Second, you must file a complaint about the process server. If you don't, it will happen to others, maybe even you, again and again. Go to the Supreme Court's website to fill out a complaint.

Regarding judges, they must hear your case and they must uphold the law. Yes, Arizona has a code of conduct that governs what a judge may do. One of the most important duties of a judge or hearing officer is to uphold the law. A judicial ethical opinion concludes that consistently ignoring the law can be grounds for removal of a judge from office.

If you give the judge legit reasons why he or she should question the validity of charges against you, that's when you have a decent chance of having your case dismissed or reduced.

It's like going to war, since they have this robot doing all their dirty work we must prove that this robot is not superior to humans and their word or evidence is not proof that they are always right. We find out these robots weaknesses and expose it to defeat it. Computers/robots are not always right either, just like humans are not always right.

Again, if more of us would go to court prepared to fight back for our legal rights, we can put photo radar systems out of business. Don't be afraid, your children will thank you for not letting robots dictate their futures.
BIG and important question ? Who installed the camera's ? who manages these camera's ? who does the billing for these tickets. AND most importantedly who was injured ? . You might find that the city's contract with the co that makes the camera system , they do the billing , they collect the money then share the profits with the city's . So i ask How was this private corporation injured? And one more thing , if you have read any of my post i have asked if any one knew the differance between ( JOHN J. JONES and John J. Jones ) look at your ticket see which one the court used! THen direct message me i will give you the answer , the reason the ticket is un inforceable on you! don't laugh this is for real.. KNOWELAGE IS WONDERFUL

Last edited by Fighter 1; 05-18-2008 at 03:19 PM..
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:35 PM
 
1 posts, read 12,129 times
Reputation: 18
Default more...

[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Interesting-[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]As ex law enforcement and the veteran of three photo radar citations myself, I applaud Rockyís advice to get informed before going to Court. I do not support bad driving, but so many of these citations would never be issued by a real police officer, but with photo radar a machine makes the decision! [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Here are some of the top things I have found that drivers donít know- a kind if photo radar 101- Arizona:[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]1. In Arizona, most traffic citations are civil, not criminal. Almost all photo radar cites are civil- you can not be arrested for a civil traffic violation alone. With criminal matters you can be found guilty or not guilty. In civil traffic matters you are either not responsible or responsible. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3](But we have all heard about the police going out to arrest when some yahoo goes 100 mph on the 101 so what gives? They go arrest him/her as that is a criminal speed along with reckless driving or some other criminal matter.) [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]If you get pulled over by the police, and the officer hands you the citation that is legal service as they are an officer of the court. With photo radar you must be personally served! Mail service is not legal service- that is the current case law out of PV. Unless you are legally served, the court will dismiss the citation within time frames. Current law is 120 days after the citation is filed with the court- this is defined as when you are set to be served, not when you got the citation.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]An example: you get photo radar cite on 04/01/2008. You get it in the mail on 04/10 and have a court date of 05/10/2008. You do not respond and you do not go to court. After that, you may be set up for personal service- this is the date that starts the count down of 120 days. If you are not personally and ďlegallyĒ (I could write a long thread about that as well) served your case will be dismissed. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Of course, the original notice uses strong language to scare the un-informed and most people respond out of fear! When you do that, you voluntarily serve yourself which is a really dumb thing to do in my opinion. Make them serve you. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]2. Look up what you are accused of! Sounds simple, huh? Why people do not do this is beyond me! In AZ traffic law is found in the Arizona Revised Statues (ARS) title 28. That is what is printed on your speeding citation- it will say you are accused of violating ARS 28-701A. Look it up, see what it says and ask yourself if you did what they say you did? You will note the wording does not use the term speeding. It refers to speed that is not reasonable and prudent. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]Keep in mind, the burden is on the State. You do not have to prove or disprove anything. Just like in a civil law suit the party that files the suit has the burden. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]3. So you get served, now what? You must be served legally- would take too long to explain so look up process servers in AZ and what they must and must not do. You have a right to be properly served. They can not, for example, leave it on your doorstep or with a child. Look up the rulesÖget informed. The personal service will give you new court date- that one you must attend to fight or just admit responsibility. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3]4. Now that you are legally served, that is OK- You still have all your rights to fight the citation- but again, get informed. Rocky is correct- Susan Kaylers book is a great place to start. You would be amazed at how the court will treat you when you know how to present your case. Learn how to object to the states evidence- that is your right to do so. Learn how to file a motion and subpoena evidence. Also, learn what will make you look stupid as well- like challenging photo radar technology- you will never win that argument unless you are a physicist. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman][/FONT]
[SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman]If everyone demanded their day in court we might send a strong message to the State- we will not be judged by a machine- If you are going to give up $200, make them earn it! Besides, even if you lose it is a great civics lesson and very impowering. [/FONT][/SIZE]
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Old 05-27-2008, 08:46 PM
 
Location: Out there somewhere...
26,655 posts, read 18,645,560 times
Reputation: 72754
Isn't it easier and cheaper to just obey the law?
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Old 05-28-2008, 12:50 AM
 
430 posts, read 904,678 times
Reputation: 147
Default sounds simple enough to me

[quote=nitram;3902921]Isn't it easier and cheaper to just obey the law?


I drive without fear of the bad, bad, robot gosh, thats what happens to a person that don't behave like a speed demon, so much effort on how to get out of a speeding ticket that obviously people were speeding to get in most cases, just a little wee bit of that effort towards safety and curtious driveing would help so much more.
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