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Old 06-07-2015, 09:12 PM
 
639 posts, read 967,419 times
Reputation: 1033

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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
The main point of the articles you referenced indicate that welfare collectors spend less/have smaller budgets than people who don't collect welfare. Shocking indeed. Sandy6879, I sure hope they aren't make more than someone working for a living! Good gravy.

And what does that have to do with collecting under false pretenses or people getting off their duff and work for a living without collecting welfare for years/perpetually, which the new AZ law is designed to hopefully encourage?
TANF requires that people find a job within 2 years of first receiving benefits.
Source: US Welfare System - Help for US Citizens

Over 80% of people who are on assistance, are off it within 5 years. Over 50% are off it within 2 years.
Source: US Welfare System - Help for US Citizens
Source: Welfare Statistics | Statistic Brain



Believe what you want. Numbers don't lie. But at the end of the day - if we as a society stop caring about those that DO need assistance, what does that say about us as a state? Again, I'm not in favor of people lying to defraud the system. Require all the validation in the world to make sure those that are receiving it need to be. But in all reality, the amount of money that gets paid out to those who are defrauding it is a drop in the bucket. We're spending our time fighting over a minimal amount of money.

Want to make a difference? Stop the tax fraud and the loopholes that occur a whole lot more often and cost a whole lot more.
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:13 PM
 
Location: Rural Michigan
6,343 posts, read 14,628,123 times
Reputation: 10548
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post

A recent homeless patient came in, 45YO, overdosed on Meth, it triggered a heart attack, left him partially paralyzed! He'll be on Medicaid now for an eternity!

Choices! Choices! Choices!
SUCH EASY MONEY!

JUST HAVE A STROKE & YOU CAN LIVE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE IN LUXURY!

Sorry for the caps, I'm just soooooo inflammed that the poors have got it so easy here!

Did u know that most of them even have *refrigerators*?

If you're really "hungry", just sell your refrigerator on craigslist & buy some damn food!

If you don't have any bread, just have a slice of pie or sumtin'.

/snark off..

You guys are all pathetic.

I really can't wait for the 1% to complete their next goal, de-funding & stealing social security.

The younger generations will sell your scrawny, withered-old corpses for dog food to save a buck, cause that's the free-market solution.
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,068 posts, read 6,436,494 times
Reputation: 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippyman View Post
SUCH EASY MONEY!

JUST HAVE A STROKE & YOU CAN LIVE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE IN LUXURY!

Sorry for the caps, I'm just soooooo inflammed that the poors have got it so easy here!

Did u know that most of them even have *refrigerators*?

If you're really "hungry", just sell your refrigerator on craigslist & buy some damn food!

If you don't have any bread, just have a slice of pie or sumtin'.

/snark off..

You guys are all pathetic.

I really can't wait for the 1% to complete their next goal, de-funding & stealing social security.

The younger generations will sell your scrawny, withered-old corpses for dog food to save a buck, cause that's the free-market solution.
As you once told me in response to one of my posts, zippy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippyman View Post
relax, Stevie!

Here, have a Kingman & lets dribble a little "pick-me-up" into your coffee.. :-)
I think we can all have different views without getting too bent out of shape.
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Tucson/Nogales
23,140 posts, read 28,874,075 times
Reputation: 32485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zippyman View Post
SUCH EASY MONEY!

JUST HAVE A STROKE & YOU CAN LIVE THE REST OF YOUR LIFE IN LUXURY!

Sorry for the caps, I'm just soooooo inflammed that the poors have got it so easy here!

Did u know that most of them even have *refrigerators*?

If you're really "hungry", just sell your refrigerator on craigslist & buy some damn food!

If you don't have any bread, just have a slice of pie or sumtin'.

/snark off..

You guys are all pathetic.

I really can't wait for the 1% to complete their next goal, de-funding & stealing social security.

The younger generations will sell your scrawny, withered-old corpses for dog food to save a buck, cause that's the free-market solution.
You do realize that, recently, obesity is now classified a disease! We get those into our facility as well, who need extra-wide beds, extra-wide wheelchairs, more staffing to turn them, get them in and out of bed.

One patient, a couple years ago, 22YO woman, too obese to even tie her shoelaces!

Ah! Don't want to work ever again? Go out and buy boxes and boxes of doughnuts, eat, eat, eat, get so obese, you end up on Medicaid!

And as you continue eating those doughnuts, in between bites, laugh at the taxpayers!
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Amongst the AZ Cactus
7,068 posts, read 6,436,494 times
Reputation: 7730
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy6879 View Post
TANF requires that people find a job within 2 years of first receiving benefits.
Source: US Welfare System - Help for US Citizens

Over 80% of people who are on assistance, are off it within 5 years. Over 50% are off it within 2 years.
Source: US Welfare System - Help for US Citizens
Source: Welfare Statistics | Statistic Brain



Believe what you want. Numbers don't lie. But at the end of the day - if we as a society stop caring about those that DO need assistance, what does that say about us as a state? Again, I'm not in favor of people lying to defraud the system. Require all the validation in the world to make sure those that are receiving it need to be. But in all reality, the amount of money that gets paid out to those who are defrauding it is a drop in the bucket. We're spending our time fighting over a minimal amount of money.

Want to make a difference? Stop the tax fraud and the loopholes that occur a whole lot more often and cost a whole lot more.
My largely Libertarian self is with you on stopping fraud or taking taxpayer $ for any reason that is given as a handout without any strings attached. Back to the topic at hand.....

As for "minimal" amounts of money, I beg to differ:

Census Bureau: Means-Tested Gov't Benefit Recipients Outnumber Full-Time Year-Round Workers

Note these numbers don't include unemployment benefits, ssn payouts, medicare, workers comp, veterans benefits, etc. And if most people are off welfare within 2 or 5 years based on the data you provided, why are the welfare #'s rising so fast/such a huge % of our population, 1/3 of our nation on some sort of welfare, and growing so rapidly?

Let's say for fun/fantasy land that the census number from a few years ago that the 108 million + people that are on some sort of welfare because they really need it/aren't milking the system. They are all truly needy at some level. And they can't better themselves because life decisions are completely out of their control. It still doesn't address the fact that it's an unsustainable number from both a financial standpoint and for a society to function on a healthy level. And when the number of collectors outnumbers the number of people working full time? That's truly a scary number on so many levels that I think should be a major red flag warning that more than a few would seem to think something has to be done other than the status quo of handing out money for years or indefinitely.
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Old 06-07-2015, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Rural Michigan
6,343 posts, read 14,628,123 times
Reputation: 10548
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
As you once told me in response to one of my posts, zippy:



I think we can all have different views without getting too bent out of shape.
I couldn't disagree more on this particular issue.

We're talking about hungry American citizens, not "moochers".

For well over thirty years, our government has declared war on poor people, while simultaniously kissing corporate ass on a scale unseen since the days of the robber-barons.

The true "greedy-moochers" in our society aren't on "welfare", they're the Koch's and the Waltons, and the Bloombergs.

Buying the laws that benefit themselves at the expense of the majority of our society.

At some point, you aren't trimming "fat" anymore, you're trimming bone.

It can't continue indefinitely & at some point your actions will create a re-action.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:04 PM
 
639 posts, read 967,419 times
Reputation: 1033
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevek64 View Post
My largely Libertarian self is with you on stopping fraud or taking taxpayer $ for any reason that is given as a handout without any strings attached. Back to the topic at hand.....

As for "minimal" amounts of money, I beg to differ:

Census Bureau: Means-Tested Gov't Benefit Recipients Outnumber Full-Time Year-Round Workers

Note these numbers don't include unemployment benefits, ssn payouts, medicare, workers comp, veterans benefits, etc. And if most people are off welfare within 2 or 5 years based on the data you provided, why are the welfare #'s rising so fast/such a huge % of our population, 1/3 of our nation on some sort of welfare, and growing so rapidly?

Let's say for fun/fantasy land that the census number from a few years ago that the 108 million + people that are on some sort of welfare because they really need it/aren't milking the system. They are all truly needy at some level. And they can't better themselves because life decisions are completely out of their control. It still doesn't address the fact that it's an unsustainable number from both a financial standpoint and for a society to function on a healthy level. And when the number of collectors outnumbers the number of people working full time? That's truly a scary number on so many levels that I think should be a major red flag warning that more than a few would seem to think something has to be done other than the status quo of handing out money for years or indefinitely.
We can agree on a lot of points. On the point of full time employment - many workplaces aren't offering full-time jobs any longer. The ones that are, don't often supply a wage that allows a family to live on. This comes back around as an overall issue with employment, companies only hiring part-time in order to avoid paying benefits, etc. It's a systemic breakdown. There's not a simple solution. Leaving those that are most vulnerable without a safety net is not, IMO, the answer. Offer companies incentive to hire full-time workers. Get the entire COL under control in some way - the recent study about how much someone would need to make in order to pay for a 2BR apartment was eye-opening. A New Study Maps How Much Income You Need to Rent a 2-Bedroom Apartment - CityLab

The reason that the assistance numbers are growing is multi-faceted. The first that come to mind - You have a rise in cost of living, and a decrease in full-time employment. You have outsourcing. You have technology taking over a portion of jobs. You have employers purposely not hiring when someone quits/leaves and just spreading work responsibility on the employees who remain rather than re-hiring.

To be really real, I received assistance at one point in my life. I was in school (taking out student loans, incurring debt I'm still paying off), I worked 2 jobs, I had a child and her biological father signed over his rights. At the time, that meant he no longer was responsible for child support. I had the responsibility of all the bills to pay for myself, at a pretty young age. To keep a roof over our heads, I received a miniscule amount of cash assistance.

The second I made over the amount allotted a month, the assistance was completely taken away. It wasn't a step-down program - it was all or nothing. It meant, when I got a raise of 20 cents an hour, that we lost $400 a month of money coming into the household. When someone is barely making ends meet in the first place, that's a significant amount of money. An answer - which I proposed 17 years ago - might be a step-down program off assistance, rather than an all or nothing approach. You might see more people move to get off the assistance if that was in place. But to lose that chunk out of a household, is scary. I won't say that I didn't work hard, but I also had situations in my life that allowed me to get to where I am now. I know many people who did not have those advantages. Having lived it, I have a lot more sympathy for people in that situation than many people who like to judge from the sidelines.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:08 PM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
8,028 posts, read 12,203,009 times
Reputation: 9803
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy6879 View Post
“Average family size was the same (3.7 persons), whether or not a family received assistance,” the report notes.
Right there is one the problems: family size. According to one of the links you posted, the average number of children under 18 is actually higher among those families who receive public assistance: 2.2 vs. 1.9 for those who don't receive assistance. Anybody on welfare shouldn't even be having children in the first place. At least you agree that there is abuse and it should be stopped. Well, as far as I'm concerned, people who keep spewing out kids without the sufficient means to do so on their own are milking the system, which is abuse.

Another thing that really irritates me is the way people claim practically anything as a disability for a reason not to work & get on welfare, and they get by with it with no feelings of guilt. Here's a good example: my girlfriend's ex husband began abusing drugs and became infected with Hepatitis C, apparently from infected needles. He quit working and was able to claim his Hep C as a disability & go permanently on welfare. After they were divorced, he shacked up with a woman and had two kids, all of whom are being supported by welfare ... meaning you and I are funding his irresponsible lifestyle. I met this guy once, and just from seeing him, I know he is able bodied enough to work a full time job, but he chooses to be one of the leeches.

Some people I work with have REAL disabilities which would qualify them to stop working and go on assistance, but they still go to work and are able to do their jobs with the occasional sick leave. That's what MANY of these people on welfare who claim to be disabled should be doing: taking an example from the ones who have disabilities but still are able to work a regular eight hour job, which might be a struggle, but it can still be done. Everybody at some point has medical issues ... but there are too many out there who decide to claim every ailment as a disability and go on public assistance. They are the ones who I label as moochers, spongers, leeches, lowlifes, and the like. Sorry to say it, but there are more people who fit that description than you would like to think.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:27 PM
 
639 posts, read 967,419 times
Reputation: 1033
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
Right there is one the problems: family size. According to one of the links you posted, the average number of children under 18 is actually higher among those families who receive public assistance: 2.2 vs. 1.9 for those who don't receive assistance. Anybody on welfare shouldn't even be having children in the first place. At least you agree that there is abuse and it should be stopped. Well, as far as I'm concerned, people who keep spewing out kids without the sufficient means to do so on their own are milking the system, which is abuse.


To address this argument - what do you say to the family that was doing well, something happened, and they need to apply for assistance? It's not as easy anymore to break down the statistical numbers as to who had kids while receiving the assistance vs who was doing ok, then something happened where they needed help.

I'm not saying that everyone out there falls into this category - but some do. There is more to this than the simplistic talking points that are being posted.
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Old 06-07-2015, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Rust'n in Tustin
3,194 posts, read 3,869,786 times
Reputation: 6939
Should we help the helpless, absolutely. But you know what, screw the clueless.
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