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Well, there will be a learning curve with drivers who don't know how to use them, and the few fender benders, and of course we need to take pedestrians into consideration, but I really think round-abouts could move traffic faster on sections of roads where they have several traffic lights within a 1/2 mile stretch.
Going back to the major/minor street intersections like 15th and 17th Avenues, on Bell Road. Many times, I've seen the east and west-bound traffic on Bell get backed up because of one of those north/south Avenues, with hardly any traffic. Another example, 3rd Street & Thomas, I was on the east-bound lanes on Thomas recently and traffic was backed up because of the light at 3rd Street, with no north/south traffic. There's no reason for traffic lights like that to be red for a long time on the major street.
Round-abouts at those intersections would cause traffic to slow down, but at least they'll keep traffic moving. I'm not saying put them at major intersections, just get rid of the unnecessary lights at major/minor street intersections.
Roundabouts are a driver's nightmare.
They keep traffic moving until some knucklehead doesn't follow the correct yielding procedures and winds up causing an accident, creating more of a standstill than stoplights do.
Multitudes of stoplighted intersections have downsides but at least they keep traffic flow regulated.
I think roundabouts are a bad idea especially on major streets.
I think that Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) does a pretty good job of getting people out of their cars. I personally think Phoenix could benefit from bus only lanes that would significantly reduce travel times on buses, especially during rush hours. I know that Las Vegas, where I am originally from has bus only lanes on many major arterials there and it seems to work pretty well. Right now, the light rail only seems to chug along at 30-35 MPH. I don't see why this can't be replace by articulated buses, you know, the ones with the accordion like feature that basically doubles the length of the bus in bus only lanes. Most of our arterials have speed limits ranging between 35-45 MPH. Implement a bus only lane and allow buses to travel at these speeds only impeded by turning vehicles and traffic lights. Turn the dirt median of the 10 that exists between the Mini Stack (51/202/10) into a bus only way from there to at least 79th Avenue. The problem is that most people don't want to sit on some slow, loud bus full of people who are from all walks of life (homeless, mentally ill, criminals, disrespectful school children, screaming babies, etc.). I think implementing a rapid bus system would really benefit commuters and students.
Light rail does get some people out of their cars, but it's cost is just so high for the percentage of people who benefit from it. Light rail has a place in connecting more of the denser activity center (ASU, Downtown and Midtown Phoenix, South Phoenix), but this idea of spreading LRT to Paradise Valley Mall, Westgate, and the 79th Avenue park and ride is just foolish. The auto will win out once you exceed a certain distance from downtown and the "hubs" of the Valley. Unless you live in Tempe or Downtown and are planning to get sloshed at Westgate, I don't see what benefit LRT provides. You can travel by auto and get to your destination much sooner. What makes sense for farther out locales is commuter rail. Commuter rail combined with bus rapid transit in Phoenix would work wonders. The things is that traffic on our freeways is going to get exponentially worse. Many complain about traffic now, but with 2-3 million more people traveling on the freeways we have with the same lanes, things are going to get a lot worse. People will increasingly be attracted to any mode of transportation that will get people to where they need to go the fastest.
I agree, we absolutely do NOT need to ignore our transit like LA. I can't imagine 15 or 20 years from now sitting in bumper to bumper traffic on the 202 at 2 AM on a Sunday. We need options to ensure that we avoid that.
If 104 truly introduced some context sensitive, real world solutions, I'd be for it. Spending a blank check to expand inefficient light rail over the next forty years, repave a street whenever the city deems it necessary, while ignoring more sensible solution is just asinine to me.
Is this the takeaway from the debate? I genuinely don't believe that Phoenix will see the growth it used to for a myriad of reasons, but when push comes to shove it will grow, and since most of the Valleys jobs are centralized we will need to improve Phoenix propers transportation infrastructure, and that will involve less cars. The urban planners nightmare is to create a downtown that is a business center where people work and leave at 5pm only to enter their suburbs that are more dense than the urban corridor. For years Phoenix has upheld this model.
What would be ideal is to have a real discussion between Phoenix and the major suburbs about a commuter rail, but this is far fetched. But placing an emphasis on metrocenter (a mall that was cool when I was a kid) now is pretty meaningless I mean this area only seems to get worse with time (again I grew up right next to the mall). But boy do I miss being able to go to Castles n Coasters. Much of my childhood is different it's a shame she failed this debate, but a real transportation initiative is desperately needed. ADOT needs to get invested in a rail system, I lived in Denver for a few years and have a few work projects there, that rail along the freeways was not only packed, but traveled at a quick pace.
That said, your rapid bus idea is also a very good one a protected lane sort of exists already with the HOV. On major thoroughfares like Bell or Central would be great and cheap.
Last edited by JGMotorsport64; 07-28-2015 at 10:41 PM..
Is this the takeaway from the debate? I genuinely don't believe that Phoenix will see the growth it used to for a myriad of reasons, but when push comes to shove it will grow, and since most of the Valleys jobs are centralized we will need to improve Phoenix propers transportation infrastructure, and that will involve less cars. The urban planners nightmare is to create a downtown that is a business center where people work and leave at 5pm only to enter their suburbs that are more dense than the urban corridor. For years Phoenix has upheld this model.
What would be ideal is to have a real discussion between Phoenix and the major suburbs about a commuter rail, but this is far fetched. But placing an emphasis on metrocenter (a mall that was cool when I was a kid) now is pretty meaningless I mean this area only seems to get worse with time (again I grew up right next to the mall). But boy do I miss being able to go to Castles n Coasters. Much of my childhood is different it's a shame she failed this debate, but a real transportation initiative is desperately needed. ADOT needs to get invested in a rail system, I lived in Denver for a few years and have a few work projects there, that rail along the freeways was not only packed, but traveled at a quick pace.
That said, your rapid bus idea is also a very good one a protected lane sort of exists already with the HOV. On major thoroughfares like Bell or Central would be great and cheap.
I think my overall takeaway from the debate is that this is a rushed, poorly thought out proposition. It's intentions are in the right place, but it was put together sloppily. When you have city leaders who don't even know the details of what they're asking voters to approve, it doesn't instill any trust and confidence that the city can or will follow through. I, like you, highly doubt Phoenix will grow nearly as quickly as this city projects. Phoenix's days of enormous populations gains are done. Sure, we will continue to grow at a pace above the national average, but the whole Valley adding one million people per decade like we did prior to the recession is very questionable.
I think urban planners are trying to create a downtown that serves more than the 7 AM-5 PM working crowd. They want a 24/7 vibrant downtown. The problem is that so much of the history of downtown has been torn down for parking lots, vacant lots, and repulsive architecture constructed from the 1960s-2000s. Outside of sporting events and the occasional popular convention, downtown is just dead. Even traveling through downtown at 2 PM on a weekday makes me feel like I'm in some ghost town. Light rail has been in place for about seven years now and I feel like downtown is still just a sleepy little place. Tempe has far exceeded the urbanity that downtown Phoenix has hoped to achieve. It has taken jobs, millennials, and street activity away from downtown Phoenix while Phoenix city officials continue to pat each other and the back, complimenting each other on what "great" job they've done with our downtown. It's just sad.
I completely agree that all 21 or 22 Valley mayors need to sit down and have a serious conversation about commuter rail. It is the most viable form of public transportation in the Valley, next to an enhanced bus system. A good commuter rail system could actually have a meaningful impact on traffic as it builds up on metro Phoenix freeways over the next couple of decades. There is no money and seemingly no will for anyone to introduce a topic. All the focus is on this light rail, which chugs along at 35-45 MPH and stops at red lights. I believe Phoenix used to have a trolley that went all around the Valley, including to Wickenburg decades upon decades ago. It's a shame that we couldn't use history to build upon our foundation. Instead we've torn out the foundation and are now trying to pour a new one that is clearly flawed.
I kind of wish I could have seen the old Phoenix. It is sad that a lot of what made this place unique has been traded for wider roads, identical HOA subdivisions, cheaply built apartments, endless strip malls, and Walgreens/CVS/Circle K/Quik Trip combinations on almost every single corner.
I think my overall takeaway from the debate is that this is a rushed, poorly thought out proposition. It's intentions are in the right place, but it was put together sloppily. When you have city leaders who don't even know the details of what they're asking voters to approve, it doesn't instill any trust and confidence that the city can or will follow through. I, like you, highly doubt Phoenix will grow nearly as quickly as this city projects. Phoenix's days of enormous populations gains are done. Sure, we will continue to grow at a pace above the national average, but the whole Valley adding one million people per decade like we did prior to the recession is very questionable.
I think urban planners are trying to create a downtown that serves more than the 7 AM-5 PM working crowd. They want a 24/7 vibrant downtown. The problem is that so much of the history of downtown has been torn down for parking lots, vacant lots, and repulsive architecture constructed from the 1960s-2000s. Outside of sporting events and the occasional popular convention, downtown is just dead. Even traveling through downtown at 2 PM on a weekday makes me feel like I'm in some ghost town. Light rail has been in place for about seven years now and I feel like downtown is still just a sleepy little place. Tempe has far exceeded the urbanity that downtown Phoenix has hoped to achieve. It has taken jobs, millennials, and street activity away from downtown Phoenix while Phoenix city officials continue to pat each other and the back, complimenting each other on what "great" job they've done with our downtown. It's just sad.
I completely agree that all 21 or 22 Valley mayors need to sit down and have a serious conversation about commuter rail. It is the most viable form of public transportation in the Valley, next to an enhanced bus system. A good commuter rail system could actually have a meaningful impact on traffic as it builds up on metro Phoenix freeways over the next couple of decades. There is no money and seemingly no will for anyone to introduce a topic. All the focus is on this light rail, which chugs along at 35-45 MPH and stops at red lights. I believe Phoenix used to have a trolley that went all around the Valley, including to Wickenburg decades upon decades ago. It's a shame that we couldn't use history to build upon our foundation. Instead we've torn out the foundation and are now trying to pour a new one that is clearly flawed.
I kind of wish I could have seen the old Phoenix. It is sad that a lot of what made this place unique has been traded for wider roads, identical HOA subdivisions, cheaply built apartments, endless strip malls, and Walgreens/CVS/Circle K/Quik Trip combinations on almost every single corner.
Growing to grow has been a way of life in Phoenix for decades. That said I've been reading this guy for years take his negativity with a grain of salt, but his photos and commentary provide a great idea of the old Phoenix. It's a little glorified but these photos alone are gems by themselves.
I completely agree that all 21 or 22 Valley mayors need to sit down and have a serious conversation about commuter rail. It is the most viable form of public transportation in the Valley, next to an enhanced bus system. A good commuter rail system could actually have a meaningful impact on traffic as it builds up on metro Phoenix freeways over the next couple of decades. There is no money and seemingly no will for anyone to introduce a topic. All the focus is on this light rail, which chugs along at 35-45 MPH and stops at red lights.
I think commuter rail is a good idea, but how would you implement it? Would use existing rail lines and lease/rent them? Put down new dedicated rail lines in the current rail ROW if it's available? Put down new rails where houses and neighborhoods are now and you use eminent domain to buy the land?
I like Denver's light rail system, where only a small bit is along surface streets, mainly downtown, which makes sense, and the rest is mostly along the interstates and freeway or existing rail ROW, where it can speed along and never have to worry about having to stop for red lights.
One of the improvements that I'd like to see, that was not specifically mentioned in 104, is get rid of a lot of the unnecessary traffic lights and replace them with round-abouts. If you've driven on busy roads, like E. Camelback or Bell Road, you'll often wonder why they have sooooo many of those lights on major roads that intersect with the smaller roads. Good examples are Peoria, around Metro Center, 17th Ave & Bell Road, 29th Ave & Bell Road, the stretch on Bell from 59th Ave to the 101, especially around Arrowhead Mall. I've seen traffic get backed up in both east/west directions on Bell Road, while waiting for the lights like the ones on 15th and 17th Avenues to turn green, and there wasn't any north/south traffic on either one! The lights turned red on Bell because of maybe 1 or 2 vehicles that were waiting to stop traffic on Bell. Drive further east to 7th St. and that's another perfect example of why those lights are causing traffic backup problems on Bell Road, and that's just one example, there are hundreds of them all over the metro area.
Why not replace those traffic lights with round-abouts at those intersections with strip malls or malls around them? Leave traffic lights at major streets, but don't have them at every major/minor street intersections.
Smart traffic lights that can programmed based on the volume of traffic and the time of the day are also another solution.
Such solutions are more effective in reducing congestion. Let's face it, the only people who will benefit from 104 are constructions companies, not motorists
Traffic would flow better on major roads like Bell if there are only traffic signals every mile, or every 1/2 mile. Roundabouts on a major road are a disaster. Drive on Happy Valley across I-17 during the day (especially westbound in the afternoon).
I live in Central Phoenix, and I did vote for the existing Rail. I tend to favor a progressive agenda and am not averse to paying higher taxes for infrastructure and schools (I have no children). But light rail has done nothing to improve traffic congestion or the quality of life. Local businesses went out of business or are barely holding on. Of course, big businesses like Starbucks and Target continue to thrive.
Since the Rail was built, traffic congestion is worse. I avoid streets with the Rail, because it takes longer to get through a light. Based on the traffic congestion, I'd say most people still drive. Even if the Rail is extended to cover more areas of Phoenix, people won't use it. It's too hot to walk to a transit station most of the year, and most people are transporting children, older relatives or shopping purchases. Rail is not feasible here. It doesn't make sense to spend massive amounts of money on something that few people use. And one shouldn't compare not wanting to pay for the expense of light rail to failing to fund schools--large numbers of people use the public school system.
Crime has not decreased in our Central Phoenix neighborhood since the Rail was built. In fact, we have had more burglaries and more vagrants in our neighborhood. I don't see how building more rail lines to link the Metro Center area, South Phoenix and West Phoenix with Central Phoenix will do anything to improve the quality of life here.
Apparently, the Rail isn't particularly safe either. Despite the inconvenience of the Light Rail construction, I was looking forward to riding the Rail. However, when I learned of the problems with vagrants riding the rail, I decided not to take the chance. Not having security on board to enforce rules was a huge mistake. When discussing the Rail with City employees at a neighborhood meeting, I was told that they were aware of the freeloader and vagrancy problems and were working on it. That was two or three years ago. Since then, I have heard from a friend of mine who rides the rail that he will not be riding anymore because of the increasing numbers of riffraff riding the train. It has not gotten better as promised. Nothing I have seen at the Rail stations convinces me otherwise.
Why not just have more buses? People who use the Rail probably use buses as well. Why disrupt neighborhoods, businesses and local traffic when we could just have more buses running more often. At least the buses have a driver to collect fares. And with the current internet connectivity people have, setting up car-pools should be easier than in the past.
Now, I'm guessing that someone (probably representing the Big Money sending those flyers I receive in the mail DAILY) will respond with numbers and quotes from a study that says that crime has gone down and there are more businesses, etc. But I live in a neighborhood with the Rail less than a mile away. I've seen for myself, and I know what is going on. I also know that you can manipulate data and numbers to prove almost any point. There is no reason this proposition for a light rail extension had to be lumped in with police, fire, roads, buses, and other infrastructure improvements. It's just another way to force this expensive and ineffective rail option down our throats. The City should submit another infrastructure proposition without the Rail.
AZ needs to get its finances in order and attract more high paying business jobs before raising any taxes or committing billions to a new project. The state needs to avoid getting into more debt until the unemployent rate goes down and the real estate market which is the largest provider of jobs in AZ improves with double the amount of new homes( not apartments) that are currently being built.
AZ needs to get its finances in order and attract more high paying business jobs before raising any taxes or committing billions to a new project. The state needs to avoid getting into more debt until the unemployent rate goes down and the real estate market which is the largest provider of jobs in AZ improves with double the amount of new homes( not apartments) that are currently being built.
We need to grow faster and add more people BEFORE we get serious about improving transit?
Also this is a CITY OF PHOENIX proposition not a STATE OF ARIZONA proposition.
Using your logic that you don't use so you shouldn't pay for it, does that also mean if you don't have any kids going to school you shouldn't be paying property taxes for your local school district? Turn all public schools into private, supported only by the families using it? That's the same thing.
Sounds good to me. I hate socialism, and I've fought against it my entire life.
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it's a shame she failed this debate, but a real transportation initiative is desperately needed. ADOT needs to get invested in a rail system, I lived in Denver for a few years and have a few work projects there, that rail along the freeways was not only packed, but traveled at a quick pace.
Drive further east to 7th St. and that's another perfect example of why those lights are causing traffic backup problems on Bell Road, and that's just one example, there are hundreds of them all over the metro area. 
