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Old 08-02-2015, 01:49 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
6,402 posts, read 8,944,616 times
Reputation: 8491

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Mailing my ballot tomorrow. I voted "no" on Prop 104. I am very skeptical as to what benefit Phoenix will have long term. There's no telling what kind of innovations in public transport we will see 3 decades down the road. If Phoenix was to go heavy on light rail, the process should have started 3 decades ago instead of today.

The ballot language is highly suspect. Adding "may" regarding the generated revenue allocation to public transport is political trickery. Stanton and Co. are admitting with this language that portions will be distributed elsewhere. I'm left wondering if Prop 104 is also a backup plan to make up for the pension crisis. When the money is moved Stanton will refer agitated voters to the ballot language and say the people approved.
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Old 08-02-2015, 02:31 PM
 
Location: Glendale, Arizona
482 posts, read 531,094 times
Reputation: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvxhd View Post
Whether or not you actually notice the benefits of spending money on education, transportation, etc., putting money into those projects does, in time, cost us less now than it would in the future and also raises the potential to strengthen the economy.
You really need to stop and smell what you're trying to shovel. "Benefits"? Where should I look? The fact we're currently spending more on education than we've ever spent in the history of this country, and more than anyone else in the world. And as a direct result of spending all this money we don't have, we're gifted with SAT scores have been dropping steadily for decades.

U.S. education spending tops global list, study shows - CBS News

SAT reading scores drop to lowest point in decades - The Washington Post

Record-low SAT scores a wake-up call - CNN.com

Or should I look at the fact kids in this country are ranked 36th in the world in a global study?

New survey ranks U.S. students 36th in the world - How do we improve? : News : CNYcentral.com

So we're spending the most money on education of any nation per student. And we're getting kids ranked 36th in the world. And you think this is going to "strengthen the economy"? Are you F'ing serious?

Now let's talk about roads. This country's infrastructure ranks 25th in the world.

US Infrastructure Behind Developed World - Business Insider

Just about as crappy as our students coming from our communist education system. Our roads have as bumpy of a future as our "graduating" kids do. Now, if you think this is something we should be celebrating, and wishing we had more of, I would strongly suggest you put down the crack pipe and sober up! Post like yours serve as a reminder of just how screwed up the thinking has regressed in this once great nation.

Last edited by petlover8; 08-02-2015 at 02:59 PM..
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Old 08-02-2015, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Arizona
12,950 posts, read 7,114,716 times
Reputation: 9918
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondurant View Post
Mailing my ballot tomorrow. I voted "no" on Prop 104. I am very skeptical as to what benefit Phoenix will have long term. There's no telling what kind of innovations in public transport we will see 3 decades down the road. If Phoenix was to go heavy on light rail, the process should have started 3 decades ago instead of today.

The ballot language is highly suspect. Adding "may" regarding the generated revenue allocation to public transport is political trickery. Stanton and Co. are admitting with this language that portions will be distributed elsewhere. I'm left wondering if Prop 104 is also a backup plan to make up for the pension crisis. When the money is moved Stanton will refer agitated voters to the ballot language and say the people approved.

That's what I thought my wife and I are both voting no on this prop the only remote reason I would vote for it was to get our streets re-surfaced, but with only 8% of the money going to streets all that is going to do is pay for guy to shovel asphalt into a pothole. Our streets are cracked and need repair.
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Old 08-02-2015, 05:30 PM
 
Location: Glendale, Arizona
482 posts, read 531,094 times
Reputation: 403
Quote:
Originally Posted by kell490 View Post
that's what i thought my wife and i are both voting no on this prop the only remote reason i would vote for it was to get our streets re-surfaced, but with only 8% of the money going to streets all that is going to do is pay for 6 guys to shovel asphalt into a pothole. Our streets are cracked and need repair.
fixed it for ya'
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Old 08-02-2015, 06:17 PM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,247,717 times
Reputation: 10021
Phoenix is a large metropolitan area that is deserving of a sophisticated public transportation system. This will enable the city to acquire more company and professionals. It also relieves congestion on our streets. Honestly, I'm a bit shocked that some people would even have the temerity to protest something like this. I think for some people, they should strongly consider moving to a less populated more rural area. Phoenix has changed. It's no longer a small to medium sized city that you may have been accustomed to. It's never going to go back to being that type of city.

The right wing residents astonish me. They complain about the lack of jobs but don't want to invest in the type of things that attract jobs and companies. Look guys, CEO's and other executives of Fortune 500 companies are not really attracted by guns, anti-immigrant sentiment, anti-LGBT sentiment, lack of investment in public education and public transportation. Sorry but these executives don't resemble your idol Ted Nugent.

Last edited by azriverfan.; 08-02-2015 at 06:31 PM..
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Old 08-02-2015, 06:37 PM
 
10,719 posts, read 20,247,717 times
Reputation: 10021
Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusland View Post
I'm not in phoenix proper so this isn't something I am voting on, but Phoenix has some terrible congestion due to antiquated roads and infrastructure, and while this proposition sounds very good to me (I think expanding the light rail will remove a fair amount of cars, but) I am not sure if it will really remove enough cars to really address the main issues which I view phoenix having in terms of transit: extreme congestion and near-standstill traffic at certain times of the day due to on/off ramps and not enough lanes.

This proposition doesn't seem to address that issue. I would sooner vote for that! It is a nightmare to get on 51 or 17 from 10/202 at certain parts of the day.
Relative to what???? What you are describing is pretty normal for most large metropolitan cities. It's called "RUSH HOUR". Have you lived in another major metropolitan area? Phoenix is the 12th (soon to be 11th) largest metropolitan area in the country, do you really expect it to be devoid of traffic and congestion? It's far better than most cities its size. At least in Phoenix, it's limited to the weekdays and only for 2-3 hour stretches at a time. In other cities, that type of congestion can be felt at all times of the day AND weekends.
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Old 08-02-2015, 08:37 PM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
8,028 posts, read 12,205,927 times
Reputation: 9803
Quote:
Originally Posted by petlover8 View Post
I have. Private education to start. You want kids, then you pay for them. If not, don't have them. Same with abortions. Defund these worthless organizations like Planned Parenthood, that wastes a half billion dollars a year of the taxpayers money. If the product is so superior, and so needed, let them get private funding. If they can't, then it will collapse, just like any other private business. The same with NPR. End Welfare and Food Stamps for all but the most extreme cases. And then allow it for ONLY 6 months. You watch how fast those people will find jobs. More than one if necessary.
I completely agree! Those who like socialism so much should move to a socialist nation, such as practically anywhere in Europe. Having kids isn't a right, but it seems like many people who have kids are the typical selfish types who expect everybody else to subsidize their reproductive choices ... and then they have the nerve to label us selfish just because we're tired of paying for a failed public school system and other things that we don't use.

Same thing goes for transportation projects. I would like to see a better transit system, just like I would like to see a better education system, but constantly throwing more money into these things is not going to produce positive results. Speaking of transportation, we've seen this example many times with ADOT. They promised us 231 miles of new freeways back in 1985, but to this date we only have half of that number. In 2004 we voted to extend the half cent tax for more freeways and light rail, but we still have yet to see many of those new freeways! ADOT constantly cries that they don't have enough money, but maybe if they were more prudent and didn't spend it on frivolous projects like rubberized asphalt (which requires much more maintenance than concrete), they might have some extra funds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondurant View Post
Mailing my ballot tomorrow. I voted "no" on Prop 104. I am very skeptical as to what benefit Phoenix will have long term. There's no telling what kind of innovations in public transport we will see 3 decades down the road. If Phoenix was to go heavy on light rail, the process should have started 3 decades ago instead of today.

The ballot language is highly suspect. Adding "may" regarding the generated revenue allocation to public transport is political trickery. Stanton and Co. are admitting with this language that portions will be distributed elsewhere. I'm left wondering if Prop 104 is also a backup plan to make up for the pension crisis. When the money is moved Stanton will refer agitated voters to the ballot language and say the people approved.
I also noticed the word "may" instead of "will". Sounds like a very underhanded way of shaking more money out of us so the city can squander it for what they see fit. Well, I WILL fill out my ballot, and I WILL vote NO. Also, there are maps on the reverse sides of the ballot detailing what Prop 104 will fund. One of the proposed light rail lines is supposed to run from Metrocenter to PV Mall along Dunlap and Cactus. Seriously, I can't see how this would get much ridership. Even the buses along those streets run empty much of the time. Light rail is good for the more urban areas, but not really suited for suburban areas along divided, highly autocentric streets.
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Old 08-02-2015, 09:07 PM
 
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,187,716 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by petlover8 View Post
You really need to stop and smell what you're trying to shovel. "Benefits"? Where should I look? The fact we're currently spending more on education than we've ever spent in the history of this country, and more than anyone else in the world. And as a direct result of spending all this money we don't have, we're gifted with SAT scores have been dropping steadily for decades.

U.S. education spending tops global list, study shows - CBS News

SAT reading scores drop to lowest point in decades - The Washington Post

Record-low SAT scores a wake-up call - CNN.com

Or should I look at the fact kids in this country are ranked 36th in the world in a global study?

New survey ranks U.S. students 36th in the world - How do we improve? : News : CNYcentral.com

So we're spending the most money on education of any nation per student. And we're getting kids ranked 36th in the world. And you think this is going to "strengthen the economy"? Are you F'ing serious?

Now let's talk about roads. This country's infrastructure ranks 25th in the world.

US Infrastructure Behind Developed World - Business Insider

Just about as crappy as our students coming from our communist education system. Our roads have as bumpy of a future as our "graduating" kids do. Now, if you think this is something we should be celebrating, and wishing we had more of, I would strongly suggest you put down the crack pipe and sober up! Post like yours serve as a reminder of just how screwed up the thinking has regressed in this once great nation.
How convenient... you whine about throwing out money and left out the bloated military budget, which is more than the other Top 10 military spenders combined. That includes a number of socialist countries. And what part of investment is really that hard for you to understand? Ten years ago I put a lot of money into a mutual fund. How much do you think it actually earned within a day? Today it's worth a lot more, but that's because, like with any investment, it takes time. Are you really so naive to think that if you throw $1 billion into education or transportation today that you'll see results tomorrow? Also, that last link doesn't really help your position. It does, however, show that there's an immediate need to fix those problems. Unless the country can find a lot of volunteers to do very hard work or start switching to gas surcharges and toll booths, there isn't much choice but to suck it up and pay to fix it.

Also, how have they "regressed"? What were the good ol' days? Slavery? Lack of common currency? Taking a few weeks to drive from New York to California? Lower GDP? Lower education rates? Malaria? McCarthyism? Lack of sewage systems? Irresponsible agriculture? Child labor? Prevalence of shantytowns and slums? Lower pollution standards? Please be specific about how far back you would like for us to literally regress, NOT in the erroneous way you're using that word.
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Old 08-02-2015, 09:23 PM
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
8,028 posts, read 12,205,927 times
Reputation: 9803
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvxhd View Post
How convenient... you whine about throwing out money and left out the bloated military budget, which is more than the other Top 10 military spenders combined. That includes a number of socialist countries. And what part of investment is really that hard for you to understand? Ten years ago I put a lot of money into a mutual fund. How much do you think it actually earned within a day? Today it's worth a lot more, but that's because, like with any investment, it takes time. Are you really so naive to think that if you throw $1 billion into education or transportation today that you'll see results tomorrow? Also, that last link doesn't really help your position. It does, however, show that there's an immediate need to fix those problems. Unless the country can find a lot of volunteers to do very hard work or start switching to gas surcharges and toll booths, there isn't much choice but to suck it up and pay to fix it.
You just proved my point about government vs. private when you brought up the example of buying into a mutual fund. You put your own money into the fund, and it grew over the years because you invested wisely into a pool in which (more than likely) other reputable companies invest in. Big difference between investing in stocks/mutual funds and trusting the government & politicians to manage what we give them!

Things like public transportation and public education are always going to be money losing investments (and I use the word "investment" very loosely in these cases). Don't you realize that every time we vote on additional funding for schools or transportation projects, what is initially promised is rarely ever fulfilled in the end?! ADOT and the freeways are one big shining example. The 2000 tax increase to spend more money on public schools is another good example. After a few years, the same politicians and the same special interests keep claiming "there isn't enough money".

No matter how much money we throw into public services (especially schools), it hardly ever produces the results we asked for because the gov't is too much involved. Privatize these things and you will see better results in most cases. Asking everybody to contribute to things they don't use is socialism, and the output is about the same as investing in a bear fund (if you really want to compare investing in mutual funds to "investing" in public education or transportation).
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Old 08-02-2015, 10:45 PM
 
8,081 posts, read 6,918,776 times
Reputation: 7977
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
You just proved my point about government vs. private when you brought up the example of buying into a mutual fund. You put your own money into the fund, and it grew over the years because you invested wisely into a pool in which (more than likely) other reputable companies invest in. Big difference between investing in stocks/mutual funds and trusting the government & politicians to manage what we give them!

Things like public transportation and public education are always going to be money losing investments (and I use the word "investment" very loosely in these cases). Don't you realize that every time we vote on additional funding for schools or transportation projects, what is initially promised is rarely ever fulfilled in the end?! ADOT and the freeways are one big shining example. The 2000 tax increase to spend more money on public schools is another good example. After a few years, the same politicians and the same special interests keep claiming "there isn't enough money".

No matter how much money we throw into public services (especially schools), it hardly ever produces the results we asked for because the gov't is too much involved. Privatize these things and you will see better results in most cases. Asking everybody to contribute to things they don't use is socialism, and the output is about the same as investing in a bear fund (if you really want to compare investing in mutual funds to "investing" in public education or transportation).
We can complain about schools all we want. Fact is we spend 48/50 on our public schools, you may think we are overspending on our schools but we clearly aren't with Idaho and Utah being the only States spending less. We spend around 7200/pupil with the top spending 19000 NY(I wonder how their economy is doing) and the bottom spending 6500 Idaho. We get to be in company with economic powerhouses Oklahoma, Mississippi, Idaho and Utah!!!! And with the additional challenge involving ESL it's a real surprise our schools are failing?

You get what you pay for. This is an example of shooting yourself in the foot then complaining about the holes in your shoes.

Arizona school spending again near bottom of states

But rejoice our schools aren't last! Yay just 48, wait a second, that seems to match the funding!! Well I'll be a son of a gun, it makes sense now.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/lauri...tudy/30854723/

Last edited by JGMotorsport64; 08-02-2015 at 11:00 PM..
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