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Old 11-12-2015, 08:49 AM
 
Location: State 48
4,505 posts, read 2,429,854 times
Reputation: 6045

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native View Post
Can you imagine what Phoenix would look like if all the established greenery was torn out & replaced with brown desert landscape? Not only would it look barren & ugly, but it would add to the heat island effect ...
I beg your pardon, but I think the areas with non-native flora and grass look tacky in Phoenix. Areas like the greenbelt are a horrible looking mish-mash of trees and flowers, and maintained vs non-maintained grass. Its soooo ugly seeing some lawns with different colored grasses, mowed in different patterns, next to lawns with dying grass. Its just ugly. However, go up to a place like Carefree or North Scottsdale where xeriscaping is required by many HOA's, and its all clean and pristine and uniform looking. I prefer the look of xeriscaping over the tacky grass and shadetree lawns you find in older parts of Phoenix. I also dont like the mess of leaves and sticks the shadetrees leave all over the streets and cars. Its a mess!

And if all the grass was ripped up, it might maybe raise the temps here by 1-2 degrees at best. Its nothing youd even notice.
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Old 11-12-2015, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Willo Historic District, Phoenix, AZ
2,678 posts, read 3,713,301 times
Reputation: 2827
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougStark View Post
Can you share your source to prove this statement that AZ is "last in line"? That doesn't sound correct to me at all. I know Arizona made a "deal" with CA years ago in order for the CAP to be built. AZ is definitely not "last in line" behind Nevada.

One thing I do know is that NV has the smallest allotment of any of the lower Colo River water states. That's why they're furiously trying to build a massive water pipeline from NE NV all the way south to Vegas because they're almost using their full allotment of Colo Riv water and recycling as much as they can. Vegas is pissing off the old time ranchers in northern Nevada in the process because of this water grab.
I took a course in Arizona geography last year and the high level story is that the Colorado River Compact, enacted in 1922, allocates water in the Colorado. It severely (some say intentionally) over-estimated the average annual flow of the river and allocated the water to 7 states and Mexico based on those faulty assumptions. The lower part of the river was divided among Arizona, Nevada and California. Arizona spent years fighting the compact and associated agreements in court, in Congress (and with troops!) but finally agreed in 1944. Water rights are based on seniority and as Arizona was last to sign, they are last in line. It's admittedly more complicated than that, but those are the basics.

Quote:
Arizona v. California
The Compact deal showed the seven states could make a deal in principle, but what followed showed that no deal on the Colorado River would ever be easy in practice.

After signing on to the Compact in 1922, Arizona backed away, refusing to ratify the deal and eventually dispatching its troops to prove a point.

Arizona’s 1935 “war” over the construction of Parker Dam was one episode in its long struggle, and its legal battles over the Colorado River Compact didn’t end for another 70 years. In 1952 it sued California over its share of the Colorado. 16 The suit dragged on in one form or another for more than five decades, with the final decree settling the issues raised not filed until 2006.

In the process, Arizona won some of legal arguments, but it also lost much. By fighting in court rather than cutting deals, it ended up nearly last in line for allocation of the Colorado’s water. The Central Arizona Project, Arizona’s piece of the federally subsidized engineering used move the Colorado’s water, was not completed until 1994.
What Seven States Can Agree to Do: Deal-Making on the Colorado River | Rural West Initiative
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Old 11-12-2015, 09:59 AM
 
5,607 posts, read 2,571,868 times
Reputation: 4109
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS View Post
I beg your pardon, but I think the areas with non-native flora and grass look tacky in Phoenix. Areas like the greenbelt are a horrible looking mish-mash of trees and flowers, and maintained vs non-maintained grass. Its soooo ugly seeing some lawns with different colored grasses, mowed in different patterns, next to lawns with dying grass. Its just ugly. However, go up to a place like Carefree or North Scottsdale where xeriscaping is required by many HOA's, and its all clean and pristine and uniform looking. I prefer the look of xeriscaping over the tacky grass and shadetree lawns you find in older parts of Phoenix. I also dont like the mess of leaves and sticks the shadetrees leave all over the streets and cars. Its a mess!

And if all the grass was ripped up, it might maybe raise the temps here by 1-2 degrees at best. Its nothing youd even notice.
Most of Phoenix doesn't look like North Scottsdale or Carefree

Most of Phoenix looks like non-native, however desert, shrubbery and colorful rocks. But you're right, the best looking areas of Phoenix are the areas where the desert was maintained instead of engineered. There are pretty green areas, especially with the SRP irrigation. North Central is beautiful.




Quote:
Originally Posted by DougStark View Post
Can you share your source to prove this statement that AZ is "last in line"? That doesn't sound correct to me at all. I know Arizona made a "deal" with CA years ago in order for the CAP to be built. AZ is definitely not "last in line" behind Nevada.

One thing I do know is that NV has the smallest allotment of any of the lower Colo River water states. That's why they're furiously trying to build a massive water pipeline from NE NV all the way south to Vegas because they're almost using their full allotment of Colo Riv water and recycling as much as they can. Vegas is pissing off the old time ranchers in northern Nevada in the process because of this water grab.
Quote:
Arizona loses 320,000 acre feet of its 1.6 million acre foot Central Arizona Project allotment, or about 11 percent of its total Colorado River allotment. (Nevada loses 13,000 acre feet, and Mexico will get shorted 50,000 acre feet.)




Quote:
Important point number two:
  • Arizona’s major on-river agricultural water users, primarily the Colorado River Indian Tribes and the farmers of the Yuma area, also would not lose a drop under a shortage. Their rights are older, and not crimped by the 1968 California bargain.
The cuts occur when the lake falls below 1075 feet above sea level in January when the allotments are announced, we would take the first brunt of cuts. If the lake fell below 1025 making the Hoover Dam and the electric generation from the dam questionable then Arizona, Nevada, and California come together and renegotiate how the water allotments will work moving forward. We don't lose ALL of our CAP but we lose a significant chunk of it.

Quote:
It takes many more years of shortage before California loses a drop
http://www.inkstain.net/fleck/2015/0...n-in-practice/

The reason that the gloom and doom predictions exist is because recently we have been taking the entire allotment allowed by us while not actively using it. From a political standpoint, what we don't use will be used, so it only makes sense that we get our share of it as long as we can. The fear of 'limited' grass in the central areas of town are unfounded, the central area of town has a very diverse water portfolio and won't have any issues for many years to come, grass on the fringes should be a bigger concern IMO

The water is used by Pinal and Pima Counties mixed with groundwater for drinking, used by the fringes of Phoenix for the same purpose and then used by Agriculture who uses over 2/3 of it. The rest (and a significant chunk) is then put into recharge basins and "lakes" so that it sinks into the aquifer. The water is also used by developers, when you build housing you are required to secure a 100-year source of water, what that means in practice is that developers buy a portion of the water to be recharged which brings the cost of the water down.

The model in Arizona that is currently employed is that when push comes to shove, AG is going out of business during drought years. It would take many decades of drought before Phoenix felt it. Tucson has a bleaker picture as they lack surface water but they would be fine for awhile with limited growth.
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Old 11-12-2015, 10:53 AM
 
Location: State 48
4,505 posts, read 2,429,854 times
Reputation: 6045
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64 View Post
Most of Phoenix doesn't look like North Scottsdale or Carefree



Never said it did, did I?

Anyways, its a shame most of PHX doesnt look like said areas, because those areas are stunningly beautiful, well-manicured and all that. It goes to show that if xeriscaping is done well, it is absolutely gorgeous. The lights on the yuccas and saguaros at night looks beautiful. Much more so than a shaggy, non-native tree that makes a mess and requires a butt ton of water to keep alive. Such a waste.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:19 PM
 
2,982 posts, read 6,314,651 times
Reputation: 2323
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS View Post
Never said it did, did I?

Anyways, its a shame most of PHX doesnt look like said areas, because those areas are stunningly beautiful, well-manicured and all that. It goes to show that if xeriscaping is done well, it is absolutely gorgeous. The lights on the yuccas and saguaros at night looks beautiful. Much more so than a shaggy, non-native tree that makes a mess and requires a butt ton of water to keep alive. Such a waste.
That's your opinion that it looks stunningly beautiful, to most of the world it is not as pretty as grass, water and shade or palm trees. many people find the desert ugly and brown.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:43 PM
Status: "The most wonderful time of the year" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: East Central Phoenix
5,001 posts, read 7,575,883 times
Reputation: 5104
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS View Post
I beg your pardon, but I think the areas with non-native flora and grass look tacky in Phoenix. Areas like the greenbelt are a horrible looking mish-mash of trees and flowers, and maintained vs non-maintained grass. Its soooo ugly seeing some lawns with different colored grasses, mowed in different patterns, next to lawns with dying grass. Its just ugly. However, go up to a place like Carefree or North Scottsdale where xeriscaping is required by many HOA's, and its all clean and pristine and uniform looking. I prefer the look of xeriscaping over the tacky grass and shadetree lawns you find in older parts of Phoenix. I also dont like the mess of leaves and sticks the shadetrees leave all over the streets and cars. Its a mess!

And if all the grass was ripped up, it might maybe raise the temps here by 1-2 degrees at best. Its nothing youd even notice.
I guess it's your opinion if you think these areas are ugly:

http://scottsdaleforsaleaz.com/wp-co...rmick-Golf.jpg

https://www.flickr.com/photos/nickbastian/4462581803/

Country Club Manor Historic Homes For Sale in Phoenix

Encanto-Palmcroft Historic District - Phoenix AZ

http://www.phoenixrealestateagent.co...al_estate1.jpg

Carefree & far north Scottsdale might have the natural looking xeriscaped landscaping that is properly maintained, but what usually goes along with that? More dust, more blazing sunlight due to the lack of shade, as well as snakes, scorpions, and other poisonous desert creatures. As far as the rise in temperatures is concerned, we already have a massive urban heat island caused by all the sprawl growth, concrete, asphalt, etc. Desert landscape also contributes to the heat island effect ... and the Phoenix area doesn't need any further increase in temps, even just a couple of degrees. Thanks, but most of us who have established grass lawns like them and will keep them, regardless what meddlers like you think about them.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:46 PM
 
Location: State 48
4,505 posts, read 2,429,854 times
Reputation: 6045
Quote:
Originally Posted by asufan View Post
That's your opinion that it looks stunningly beautiful, to most of the world it is not as pretty as grass, water and shade or palm trees. many people find the desert ugly and brown.
Considering that the natural desert-looking areas of PHX were the fastest growing regions in the nation (and many still are), Id say your assumption might be false. There are TONS of people who love that look and relocate to areas because of it.
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Old 11-12-2015, 01:57 PM
 
2,982 posts, read 6,314,651 times
Reputation: 2323
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS View Post
Considering that the natural desert-looking areas of PHX were the fastest growing regions in the nation (and many still are)
100% incorrect statement
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Old 11-12-2015, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Phoenix, AZ
1,601 posts, read 1,040,939 times
Reputation: 1623
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGMotorsport64 View Post
Most of Phoenix doesn't look like North Scottsdale or Carefree

Most of Phoenix looks like non-native, however desert, shrubbery and colorful rocks. But you're right, the best looking areas of Phoenix are the areas where the desert was maintained instead of engineered. There are pretty green areas, especially with the SRP irrigation. North Central is beautiful.










The cuts occur when the lake falls below 1075 feet above sea level in January when the allotments are announced, we would take the first brunt of cuts. If the lake fell below 1025 making the Hoover Dam and the electric generation from the dam questionable then Arizona, Nevada, and California come together and renegotiate how the water allotments will work moving forward. We don't lose ALL of our CAP but we lose a significant chunk of it.



1,075: What a Lake Mead "shortage" would mean in practice - jfleck at inkstain

The reason that the gloom and doom predictions exist is because recently we have been taking the entire allotment allowed by us while not actively using it. From a political standpoint, what we don't use will be used, so it only makes sense that we get our share of it as long as we can. The fear of 'limited' grass in the central areas of town are unfounded, the central area of town has a very diverse water portfolio and won't have any issues for many years to come, grass on the fringes should be a bigger concern IMO

The water is used by Pinal and Pima Counties mixed with groundwater for drinking, used by the fringes of Phoenix for the same purpose and then used by Agriculture who uses over 2/3 of it. The rest (and a significant chunk) is then put into recharge basins and "lakes" so that it sinks into the aquifer. The water is also used by developers, when you build housing you are required to secure a 100-year source of water, what that means in practice is that developers buy a portion of the water to be recharged which brings the cost of the water down.

The model in Arizona that is currently employed is that when push comes to shove, AG is going out of business during drought years. It would take many decades of drought before Phoenix felt it. Tucson has a bleaker picture as they lack surface water but they would be fine for awhile with limited growth.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tucson doesn't totally lack surface water. What do you call their share of the CAP water? That's surface water (in a canal.)
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Old 11-12-2015, 02:05 PM
 
5,607 posts, read 2,571,868 times
Reputation: 4109
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougStark View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Tucson doesn't totally lack surface water. What do you call their share of the CAP water? That's surface water (in a canal.)
They lack natural surface water beyond the Santa Cruz which is tainted by questionable sewage practices in Nogales and the San Pedro which wouldn't be used without a fight. They also have an international water processing plant near Rio Rico as recycled water has become very popular in Southern AZ

Prior to CAP Tucson relied on groundwater mining and was depleting their aquifer very quickly. Tucson is, however, one of the most water efficient cities in the US in terms of water per user. Significant CAP cuts would be difficult for a place like Tucson if water levels fell below 1025
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