Denver vs. Phoenix (Flagstaff, Vail: environment, transplants, showing)

[sberdrow]

Originally Posted by TurcoLoco

I don't care what you all say about the heat in Phoenix, as far as I am concerned, women put less on because of it and that is a very welcomed eye-candy for this crazy single guy!

Thats right, not alot of skin showing in Dec in Denver.

[cameron_miller94]

Originally Posted by sberdrow

You are correct about just about everything, including the north facing driveway. I was such an idiot. I was transfered there. Facing North was probably why I got a better deal on the home. I guess my point is still the same. When you go to Phoenix, there should be no supprises as far as seeing desert and it getting hot. Moving blind (as no one will hopefully after reading my post) to Denver is, as you mentioned, not as advertised. I think I have said it before...I expected Portland Oregon without all the rain.
Of course this is a phoenix thread, and I write to it because I am quite inlove with the desert....its so alive. Maybe even more alive than the forests of the pac NW. After all, when you are in the evergreen forests, all you see is the same tree over and over again, and millions of ferns. The desert offers so much more. It also offers a little bit of danger to respect, unlike Denver where I might get lucky and see a prairie dog and brown vegitation for hundreds of miles. Leafless, human planted trees by the thousands in the city itself for half the year. I might be wrong, but I would bet the majority of folks DO NOT have any idea about what denver is like except for it being cold. Catching Bronco Games is the only exposure most of us get. Here is the irony about my North facing home. I was the lucky one, at least I did not have to look at my dead lifeless lawn and bushes for 6 months You have made some very good observations in anycase.

You told me exactly what I've been trying to get out of someone vs the same old banter. Thank you so much!!!! You hit the nail on the head!! You just sold me on every reason why I've been feeling that I don't like Denver. Thank you!!! You're the best!

[mhouse2001]

If I had never moved to Phoenix and chose instead to go to Denver like I had always dreamed, I would not know what I was missing. Having grown up in the Midwest, Denver would not have been that much different. For those who say I'm a weather weenie, yes, I can't stand the stress weather places on daily life. In Phoenix, it doesn't cause me any stress. I live in an 84 degree home all summer and only turn on the A/C in my car when my passengers complain. And in the winter, I've got the windows open practically every day. You live in the desert, you acclimate. You live in Denver, on the other hand, you never know what to expect--and that's stressful. Plans are ruined, cars are wrecked and rusted, etc. Yes, Denver is better than Phoenix on some urban issues and I think it's a better place than most, but here in Phoenix, I don't have to pack a suitcase full of clothing (t-shirt or parka today?) to prepare for the day ahead.

[Chowhound]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Even though I disagree with about 80% of what you're saying, I'm not even going to bother arguing with you on most of what you're saying here, including the weather-- a pointless debate. But on this point, your perceptions are clouded by stereotypes and have absolutely nothing to do with the pace of life and culture in either the west coast (aka, California), Phoenix, or Denver. #1 The popular image of the "west coast" (aka, California) as a "laid back" place, based on popular culture references to the "surfer lifestyle" is nothing more than a myth. Californians are some of the most over-worked, over-stressed, sleep-deprived people in the country. Traffic congestion, crime and aggressive drivers aren't exactly signs of a "laid back" lifestyle. #2 Phoenix is NOT the "west coast," it never was and it never will be. If you truly think Phoenix is the west coast, then you're a southern California wanna-be. Also, take a look at this thread I started on the California forum. Most Californians, the true west coasters, do not consider Phoenix to be the west coast. #3 Your statement about perceived differences in regional politics and diversity is extremely one-dimensional and simplistic. The good people on the Denver forum have already patiently responded to both of your concerns about diversity and politics, debunking the myths, which apparently you ignored. But leaving Denver aside, since this is the Phoenix forum anyway, since when did Phoenix become some sort of haven for liberals? A little wishful thinking, IMO.

Vegaspilgrim makes some very good points. Being a So Cal native I never understood the whole "laid back" thing. I think that is a total myth. The traffic alone could make you want to literally kill someone. Who ever thinks that Phoenix is "West Coast" needs to get a lesson in Geography. Also to think that AZ is more liberal than Colorado is quite a suprise.

[sberdrow]

Originally Posted by mhouse2001

If I had never moved to Phoenix and chose instead to go to Denver like I had always dreamed, I would not know what I was missing. Having grown up in the Midwest, Denver would not have been that much different. For those who say I'm a weather weenie, yes, I can't stand the stress weather places on daily life. In Phoenix, it doesn't cause me any stress. I live in an 84 degree home all summer and only turn on the A/C in my car when my passengers complain. And in the winter, I've got the windows open practically every day. You live in the desert, you acclimate. You live in Denver, on the other hand, you never know what to expect--and that's stressful. Plans are ruined, cars are wrecked and rusted, etc. Yes, Denver is better than Phoenix on some urban issues and I think it's a better place than most, but here in Phoenix, I don't have to pack a suitcase full of clothing (t-shirt or parka today?) to prepare for the day ahead.

my point exactly, and beleive me, you do get caught off guard in Denver. How many of you have ever been caught in a blizzard? Wind blowing so hard throwing that snow blinding against your windshield. Honestly, I would be fine if I never saw the white stuff ever again. Also A vibrant down town is waisted on me so please don't assume that this is a neg or a positive for alot of us.

[vegaspilgrim]

I just want to add one other thing to the discussion: true, not everybody every cares about downtowns. Downtown Denver has its problems and quirks too. And as some people have mentioned, downtown Denver is not even the largest employment center in the Denver metro area. The highest concentration of office space in Denver is actually found in the Denver Tech Center. But DTC is another card up Denver's sleeve which I believe has an edge over Phoenix. DTC is a HUGE suburban office park corridor in the south-central metro area, around where I-25 and I-225 meet. It forms a skyline all of its own. A lot of beautiful, sleek looking buildings there, and some rather tall ones too. Over the years, DTC has matured into more than just a place to work; it is now a place to work, live, and play, with some high-rise condos there, parks, tons of upscale shopping and restaurants, even a major outdoor amphitheater (Fiddler's Green) with big-name concerts. The homes in that area (Greenwood Village, SE Denver) have extremely high property values. The DTC area is also connected with light rail running along I-25 all the way to downtown Denver. Phoenix has nothing like this; instead the Phoenix area is chock full of little mini 1 and 2 story office parks all over the place. There are some office parts with mid rise buildings (I'm thinking the Papago Park/ East Phoenix area), but even those are extremely rare. Tempe town lake is being lined with a couple of ugly mid-rises. Scottsdale might have a few mid rise office buildings here and there. Denver has a lot of those low-rise office parks too, but it also has the DTC, a whole caliber above. And we haven't even mentioned Interlocken (between Boulder and Denver) yet.

All Phoenix has to show for itself when it comes to office buildings, other than downtown, is Central Ave-- which is basically the equivalent of Denver's Colorado Blvd-- an ugly linear street lined with out-of-date office buildings and strip malls with mediocre work-week lunch places. And when you look at the business enivornment of each city... I think Denver still comes across as the winner. The Phoenix area only has 4 Fortune 500 companies: Avnet, Phelps Dodge (now Freeport McMoRan?), US Airways, and Allied Waste. The Denver area, despite having a million fewer people, has 11 fortune 500 companies headquartered there: Qwest, Echostar Communications, Liberty Media, First Data, Liberty Global, Ball, Molson Coors, Newmont Mining, MDC Holdings (aka Richmond Homes), Level 3 Communications, and Western Union. (source: FORTUNE 500 2007: States - Colorado). Denver's economy definitely goes through ups and downs, but the way I see it, it has every industry Phoenix has... and more. Phoenix has a dangerously high reliance on home building and construction as a driver of growth; the way I see it, Denver has a lot of construction too, but it's at a more manageable pace, and their economy is a lot more diversified. How do you guys see it? Which city has the better economy?

[TurcoLoco]

Originally Posted by Chowhound

Vegaspilgrim makes some very good points. Being a So Cal native I never understood the whole "laid back" thing. I think that is a total myth. The traffic alone could make you want to literally kill someone. Who ever thinks that Phoenix is "West Coast" needs to get a lesson in Geography. Also to think that AZ is more liberal than Colorado is quite a suprise.

Having lived in Orange County for 15 years, I can honestly agree that Phoenix or Arizona is not West Coast, West or South West but not West Coast, not any more than the parts of California East of Orange County.
Yes, I said it, if you think Riverside County or any other part of the State feels like California than I have to say you need to put the pipe down.

Between Riverside County and Phoenix, not much seems or feels different to me, the only part of California that made me feel like I was in West Coast was the parts of the State within 20 miles of the Coast (give and take a few miles), the rest of the State has a crappy feel and appeal.

I feel that I am much better off living in Arizona than living in Riverside, San Bernardino or even LA County. Bay area is crazy congested, overpriced and messier. San Diego and OC are the only parts worth living in imho, the rest...is what the bird left on the rock!

[sberdrow]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

I just want to add one other thing to the discussion: true, not everybody every cares about downtowns. Downtown Denver has its problems and quirks too. And as some people have mentioned, downtown Denver is not even the largest employment center in the Denver metro area. The highest concentration of office space in Denver is actually found in the Denver Tech Center. But DTC is another card up Denver's sleeve which I believe has an edge over Phoenix. DTC is a HUGE suburban office park corridor in the south-central metro area, around where I-25 and I-225 meet. It forms a skyline all of its own. A lot of beautiful, sleek looking buildings there, and some rather tall ones too. Over the years, DTC has matured into more than just a place to work; it is now a place to work, live, and play, with some high-rise condos there, parks, tons of upscale shopping and restaurants, even a major outdoor amphitheater (Fiddler's Green) with big-name concerts. The homes in that area (Greenwood Village, SE Denver) have extremely high property values. The DTC area is also connected with light rail running along I-25 all the way to downtown Denver. Phoenix has nothing like this; instead the Phoenix area is chock full of little mini 1 and 2 story office parks all over the place. There are some office parts with mid rise buildings (I'm thinking the Papago Park/ East Phoenix area), but even those are extremely rare. Tempe town lake is being lined with a couple of ugly mid-rises. Scottsdale might have a few mid rise office buildings here and there. Denver has a lot of those low-rise office parks too, but it also has the DTC, a whole caliber above. And we haven't even mentioned Interlocken (between Boulder and Denver) yet.

All Phoenix has to show for itself when it comes to office buildings, other than downtown, is Central Ave-- which is basically the equivalent of Denver's Colorado Blvd-- an ugly linear street lined with out-of-date office buildings and strip malls with mediocre work-week lunch places. And when you look at the business enivornment of each city... I think Denver still comes across as the winner. The Phoenix area only has 4 Fortune 500 companies: Avnet, Phelps Dodge (now Freeport McMoRan?), US Airways, and Allied Waste. The Denver area, despite having a million fewer people, has 11 fortune 500 companies headquartered there: Qwest, Echostar Communications, Liberty Media, First Data, Liberty Global, Ball, Molson Coors, Newmont Mining, MDC Holdings (aka Richmond Homes), Level 3 Communications, and Western Union. (source: FORTUNE 500 2007: States - Colorado). Denver's economy definitely goes through ups and downs, but the way I see it, it has every industry Phoenix has... and more. Phoenix has a dangerously high reliance on home building and construction as a driver of growth; the way I see it, Denver has a lot of construction too, but it's at a more manageable pace, and their economy is a lot more diversified. How do you guys see it? Which city has the better economy?

well if your in sales as I am, then you probably also have a home about to be forclosed on in Denver. There is much more opportunity here. Also, people don't buy nearly as much with snow and ice all over the highways causing wrecks and killing crazy drivers. In my business, I have 4.5 times as many competitors, yet, I still have more foot traffic here. Maybe Phoenix as a whole has more money to spend. I also find people easier to deal with here, they are more open. Nice people buy things from nices professional sales people. Even in this ecconomy I see alot of folks out shopping in phoenix, but that was not the case in Denver.

This is not a direct hit on the poster, just an opionion, but my friends and I make just under 6 figures a year, and none of us work at fortune 500 companies, so Im not sure thats what you look for when you are looking for a job. VP is very sharp on the two cities is correct about much, but I just need to make a point; Even if Denver has more high end jobs, there seems to be a hiring freeze in that region for almost any job paying over 50k
Even Grocery stores were not hireing, my wife, a 13 year checker could not find a job anywhere. Any of you folks that lived in both cities agree?

[Patrick754]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

All Phoenix has to show for itself when it comes to office buildings, other than downtown, is Central Ave--

You left out the Biltmore area, lots of midrise buildings there.

[Patrick754]

Here's the 2005 GDP rankings of the worlds richest cities. Phoenix is number 27, while Denver comes in at number 35.

City Mayors reviews the richest cities in the world in 2005