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Old 03-21-2008, 11:32 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
5,610 posts, read 23,224,697 times
Reputation: 5447

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick754 View Post
You left out the Biltmore area, lots of midrise buildings there.
Oops... yes, I did forget that area. I like the way that area looks; very "snazzy." It's still a very small, limited area though. I bet that if circumstances were different, if the Biltmore area wasn't built out with a lot of opposition from local residents, there would probably be two or three times as many buildings there, and taller ones, than the way it is today.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick754 View Post
Here's the 2005 GDP rankings of the worlds richest cities. Phoenix is number 27, while Denver comes in at number 35.

City Mayors reviews the richest cities in the world in 2005
Interesting statistics, Patrick754. I don't doubt that there are many, many wealthy people living in the Phoenix area, with money to spend. I do question how much of that wealth is locally generated or tied to the local economy in any way, and how much of it was brought from transplants from outside the region, wealthy retirees, second homes, etc. Colorado also has a lot of extremely rich people moving in, second homes, wealthy retirees, etc, but for the most part, they aren't moving to Denver; they're moving to the mountains. I can see many reasons why sberdrow might have more success selling in Phoenix than in Denver. Also, Denver (in contrast to the mountain communities) is not a retirement destination at all, certainly nothing compared to Phoenix. Still... even if Phoenix has a higher average household disposable income, does Phoenix really have a stronger economy and business climate? I'm still not convinced.

 
Old 03-21-2008, 11:51 AM
 
172 posts, read 249,977 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim View Post
Interesting statistics, Patrick754. I don't doubt that there are many, many wealthy people living in the Phoenix area, with money to spend. I do question how much of that wealth is locally generated or tied to the local economy in any way, and how much of it was brought from transplants from outside the region, wealthy retirees, second homes, etc. Colorado also has a lot of extremely rich people moving in, second homes, wealthy retirees, etc, but for the most part, they aren't moving to Denver; they're moving to the mountains. I can see many reasons why sberdrow might have more success selling in Phoenix than in Denver. Also, Denver (in contrast to the mountain communities) is not a retirement destination at all, certainly nothing compared to Phoenix. Still... even if Phoenix has a higher average household disposable income, does Phoenix really have a stronger economy and business climate? I'm still not convinced.
You seem to be confusing GDP with disposable income. GDP is largely a measure of the market value of all goods and services produced within a given area within a defined time frame.
 
Old 03-21-2008, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Denver, CO
5,610 posts, read 23,224,697 times
Reputation: 5447
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick754 View Post
You seem to be confusing GDP with disposable income. GDP is largely a measure of the market value of all goods and services produced within a given area within a defined time frame.
Sure, sure, but the list is showing GDP, not GDP per capita. Phoenix has at least a million more people than Denver, so it should have a higher GDP, just based on the size. If you divide by the population of each respective urbanized area (the values Wikipedia show are from the 2000 census, so they're a little out of date, and and "urbanized area" is considered much small than a "metropolitan area," but still, Phoenix shows up as having an extra million people), to get GDP per capita, you get:
Phoenix = 156 billion/ 2,907,049 = $54,000/ capita
Denver = 130 billion/ 1,984,889 = $65,000/ capita

And btw, if you do the same calculation, using combined statistical area (and metropolitan area for Phoenix, since Phoenix's MSA is its CSA), instead of urbanized area (Denver's CSA also includes Boulder and Greeley), which would significantly even out the numbers, you still get:
Phoenix = 156 billion/ 4,039,182 = $39,000/ capita
Denver = 130 billion/ 2,927,911 = $44,000/ capita
I think this second set of numbers is more realistic than the first, but it looks to me that Denver has a higher GDP per capita.
 
Old 03-21-2008, 01:08 PM
 
172 posts, read 249,977 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim View Post
Sure, sure, but the list is showing GDP, not GDP per capita. Phoenix has at least a million more people than Denver, so it should have a higher GDP, just based on the size. If you divide by the population of each respective urbanized area (the values Wikipedia show are from the 2000 census, so they're a little out of date, and and "urbanized area" is considered much small than a "metropolitan area," but still, Phoenix shows up as having an extra million people), to get GDP per capita, you get:
Phoenix = 156 billion/ 2,907,049 = $54,000/ capita
Denver = 130 billion/ 1,984,889 = $65,000/ capita

And btw, if you do the same calculation, using combined statistical area (and metropolitan area for Phoenix, since Phoenix's MSA is its CSA), instead of urbanized area (Denver's CSA also includes Boulder and Greeley), which would significantly even out the numbers, you still get:
Phoenix = 156 billion/ 4,039,182 = $39,000/ capita
Denver = 130 billion/ 2,927,911 = $44,000/ capita
I think this second set of numbers is more realistic than the first, but it looks to me that Denver has a higher GDP per capita.
Interesting, just out of curiosity I ran the numbers for Chicago and came up with $47,422, which I would have expected to be much higher given it's economic strength in relation to Phoenix or Denver. I don't really know if gross output or per capita output is more valuable to the overall economic health/strength of an area. In the end I don't think Phoenix or Denver have particularly enviable economies as neither city is particularly diversified and both have suffered their booms and busts in recent times.

Last edited by Patrick754; 03-21-2008 at 01:17 PM..
 
Old 03-21-2008, 01:39 PM
 
172 posts, read 249,977 times
Reputation: 61
Since I'm bored today, here's a little more data, on umployment rates

Unemployment Rates for Metropolitan Areas

As of January(I suspect they have both ticked up slightly), Phoenix was at 4% and Denver at 4.7%.

I really expected to see unemployment rates shoot up in PHX as the housing market tanked, but it hasn't happened. This makes me question the conventional wisdom about how "growth dependent" the Phoenix economy is.
 
Old 03-21-2008, 02:05 PM
 
Location: Everywhere
1,920 posts, read 2,763,568 times
Reputation: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick754 View Post
Interesting, just out of curiosity I ran the numbers for Chicago and came up with $47,422, which I would have expected to be much higher given it's economic strength in relation to Phoenix or Denver. I don't really know if gross output or per capita output is more valuable to the overall economic health/strength of an area. In the end I don't think Phoenix or Denver have particularly enviable economies as neither city is particularly diversified and both have suffered their booms and busts in recent times.
Ill put in a way that makes more sense to the rest of us. I see MORE people spending money in phoenix, whereas, in Denver/Fort Collins/Colorado Springs I see empty stores, empty malls, emply movie theaters, very quiet zoos, empty National and state parks. I realize this may because of weather, but what ever the reason is, they just are not spending money right now. Maybe they will make up for it when it warms up and spend money like crazy, but for now, all seems quiet on the western front (range). Maybe they are all home buying things on the internet, I just don't know.
 
Old 03-21-2008, 02:08 PM
 
Location: Everywhere
1,920 posts, read 2,763,568 times
Reputation: 346
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick754 View Post
Since I'm bored today, here's a little more data, on umployment rates

Unemployment Rates for Metropolitan Areas

As of January(I suspect they have both ticked up slightly), Phoenix was at 4% and Denver at 4.7%.

I really expected to see unemployment rates shoot up in PHX as the housing market tanked, but it hasn't happened. This makes me question the conventional wisdom about how "growth dependent" the Phoenix economy is.
isnt just about everybody a realtor in Phoenix, maybe they are all employed, but all starving to death. Somebody has money though, more then you can find in dnever metro.
 
Old 04-17-2008, 04:08 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
1,627 posts, read 4,201,200 times
Reputation: 1783
Quote:
Originally Posted by sweettearose View Post
It just depends on what you like. I interviewed for a job in Denver. It certainly had a nicer downtown and more of an urban feel. However, it also felt much more politically and religiously conservative and less diverse. And if you live in Denver, I certainly hope you love it because there are not many places you can really travel to on the weekend since it is isolated. Phoenix has better weather and it's located near the west coast so it is much more laid back and liberal if that's what you like. Even the conservative people in Phoenix are much more left leaning than conservative groups in Colorado and other parts of the country.
I can't speak for Denver, but I'm surprised to hear you say that about Conservatives in Phoenix, who often struck me as pretty die-hard in my 14 years there (some of them were my friends, and I lean rather left.) I was under the impression that Denver, Boulder and Fort Collins were pretty liberal, and that even the more conservative areas of the state tended to be pro-conservation and environment, even if their social agenda was different. In my experience most Arizona conservative city dwellers were only concerned with the environment when it interupted their sporting, and were certainly quite extreme when it came to social issues.

But then we each have our experiences, and they're each valid in their context.
 
Old 04-17-2008, 04:18 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
1,627 posts, read 4,201,200 times
Reputation: 1783
Quote:
Originally Posted by hts View Post
In 4 hours, I can easily drive from Phx to San Diego for a nice weekend. Sea World, Legoland, Disney Land, etc. (can you tell we have young boys?).

4 hours drive from Denver and I'm in Scottsbluff Nebraska.
Um...not to detract from your point (because the overall comparison would still apply), but it's nearly 350 miles from Phoenix to San Diego. If you're driving that in 4 hours, you're going nearly 90 miles per hour with no traffic. And if you're making that trip via I-10 / US60 (say to Disneyland or the Orange County Coast) then there's always traffic.

Not saying it can't be done...I'm just saying.
 
Old 04-17-2008, 04:22 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
1,627 posts, read 4,201,200 times
Reputation: 1783
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gretchen B View Post
Hmm, well let's see - 4 hrs from Denver is Vail, Aspen, Winterpark, Leadville, Colorado Springs, Fort Collins, gorgeous mountain scenery with ski resorts in the winter and waterfalls in the spring and hiking in the summer and changing aspens in the fall. . . . And Scottsbluff, Nebraska. Have you been there? It's pretty with alot of pioneer history there.

You can also be beautiful places in AZ within 4 hours of Phoenix, but you can also be out in the middle of the desert between Quartzite and Palm Springs.
I miss the Arizona desert and I yearn for the mountains and plains of Colorado. Why can't there be jobs in Flagstaff?
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