Denver vs. Phoenix (Mesa, Scottsdale, Chandler: transplants, to rent, house)

[steve22]

Well, it's true that everyone likes to get away from wherever they live sometimes- wherever it may be- and go on vacation. And it's nice to be able to drive to other interesting, scenic nearby places on weekends or holidays.

But my point is that in Phoenix's case, this is basically one of the top advantages of living there that people bring up, rather than pointing out any of its own merits as a community. "Well, at least it's close to a lot of interesting things" doesn't do much for me, b/c that's true anywhere. Get on a plane, and you can be anywhere else in the continental U.S. within 6 hours or so. BFD. But what about the city itself? Sooner or later, inevitably you spend most of the time where you live. And for me, mild winters & hot summers (blah blah blah) notwithstanding, the part about actually having to live in the "city" of Phoenix was the problem.

In cities like the ones you mentioned, obviously it's a nice perk of living in, say, Chicago, that you can drive up the shores of Lake Michigan and get to Milwaukee or some quaint, nice Wisconsin beachfront community a few hours later. But it's not one of the great things about Chicago that people tend to bring up when discussing the city. Probably b/c there's so damn much else to do in the actual city of Chicago itself, people tend to forget about that.

[silverbear]

The argument that "Phoenix is nice because it's so close to X" is not one I use in defense of my home. I like Phoenix on its own terms, largely because I find there is "so damn much else" to do right here in the metro area. I don't know how many people use the proximity argument in support of Phoenix, and I can't say I really care.

[Steve-o]

Originally Posted by silverbear

The original intent of this thread was to debunk the nonsensical argument that Phoenix "has no culture" or "nothing to do," and it has succeeded many times over in accomplishing that task.

Actually, this thread was about Denver vs Phoenix.

The thread youre referring to is this one: http://www.city-data.com/forum/phoen...oenix-huh.html

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by Steve-o

Actually, this thread was about Denver vs Phoenix.

The thread youre referring to is this one: http://www.city-data.com/forum/phoen...oenix-huh.html

D'oh! You are correct. Right idea, but wrong thread. I've edited the comment. Time to go to lunch.

[steve22]

Originally Posted by silverbear

The argument that "Phoenix is nice because it's so close to X" is not one I use in defense of my home. I like Phoenix on its own terms, largely because I find there is "so damn much else" to do right here in the metro area. I don't know how many people use the proximity argument in support of Phoenix, and I can't say I really care.

Fair enough. I mentioned before, there are certainly things to see & do in PHX; the problem is that they're so spread out and the majority of the metro area is so unwalkable, that it feels like there's much less going on. The downtown in PHX, or lack thereof, is its major drawback, or at least I always thought so. I just hated feeling like I lived in infinite suburbia.

For people who like PHX, that's fine, to each their own. There are obviously those who can't distinguish between an actual city and an endless proliferation of strip malls, car dealerships, pawn shops, and chain restaurants, set on 6-lane throughways (central PHX, in a nutshell- and suburban too, for that matter, not that there's much difference), or don't particularly care either way. And there are those who just absolutely hate snow with such a passion, that they don't care if they're trapped indoors with the a/c cranked up for 6 months. For those people, hey, maybe PHX is paradise.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by steve22

Fair enough. I mentioned before, there are certainly things to see & do in PHX; the problem is that they're so spread out and the majority of the metro area is so unwalkable, that it feels like there's much less going on. The downtown in PHX, or lack thereof, is its major drawback, or at least I always thought so. I just hated feeling like I lived in infinite suburbia.

For people who like PHX, that's fine, to each their own. There are obviously those who can't distinguish between an actual city and an endless proliferation of strip malls, car dealerships, pawn shops, and chain restaurants, set on 6-lane throughways (central PHX, in a nutshell- and suburban too, for that matter, not that there's much difference), or don't particularly care either way. And there are those who just absolutely hate snow with such a passion, that they don't care if they're trapped indoors with the a/c cranked up for 6 months. For those people, hey, maybe PHX is paradise.

The first paragraph, as I mentioned in the "no culture" thread, is a cliche. Culture is at least partially spread out in most cities. At the same time, culture in Phoenix is actually more concentrated that most think with many attractions clustered in Downtown and Midtown.

The second paragraph I find insulting. The Phoenix I know is far from an "endless proliferation of strip malls, car dealerships, pawn shops, and chain restaurants, set on 6-lane throughways," and I would never defend a city that truly met that description.

[steve22]

Originally Posted by silverbear

The first paragraph, as I mentioned in the "no culture" thread, is a cliche. Culture is at least partially spread out in most cities. At the same time, culture in Phoenix is actually more concentrated that most think with many attractions clustered in Downtown and Midtown.

The second paragraph I find insulting. The Phoenix I know is far from an "endless proliferation of strip malls, car dealerships, pawn shops, and chain restaurants, set on 6-lane throughways," and I would never defend a city that truly met that description.

When I lived in Phoenix, my home was in the Biltmore area, which has the reputation of being the most urbanized, unique, walkable area in central Phoenix. Which might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the ridiculously busy, traffic-choked, 6-lane wide Camelback Ave. runs right through the middle of it. That sort of puts a damper on the whole walking thing. And save for a few interesting places in the Colonnade, the retail stores and restaurants in the area are limited to pretty generic, big box stuff. The Biltmore area to me was about as walkable as the vicinity immediately surrounding LAX, and looked pretty similar, actually.

And I can tell you that just about every day, on my way to work, I drove from my house to downtown, which was at about Central and McDowell. I spent a lot of time downtown, and in east central Phoenix. And actually, my description is pretty dead on, I'm afraid. Drive down Camelback, 16th, 7th, Indian School, McDowell, or Thomas in the central corridor of the city, and tell me what you see. BTW, I didn't include in my post anything about the numerous used tire & rim shops, shady apartment complexes, strip clubs, and tacky cheap Mexican food joints, b/c I thought I was being nice. It didn't look anything like any "downtown" of any other city I've ever seen, and hope never to again.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by steve22

When I lived in Phoenix, my home was in the Biltmore area, which has the reputation of being the most urbanized, unique, walkable area in central Phoenix. Which might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the ridiculously busy, traffic-choked, 6-lane wide Camelback Ave. runs right through the middle of it. That sort of puts a damper on the whole walking thing. And save for a few interesting places in the Colonnade, the retail stores and restaurants in the area are limited to pretty generic, big box stuff. The Biltmore area to me was about as walkable as the vicinity immediately surrounding LAX, and looked pretty similar, actually.

And I can tell you that just about every day, on my way to work, I drove from my house to downtown, which was at about Central and McDowell. I spent a lot of time downtown, and in east central Phoenix. And actually, my description is pretty dead on, I'm afraid. Drive down Camelback, 16th, 7th, Indian School, McDowell, or Thomas in the central corridor of the city, and tell me what you see. BTW, I didn't include in my post anything about the numerous used tire & rim shops, shady apartment complexes, strip clubs, and tacky cheap Mexican food joints, b/c I thought I was being nice. It didn't look anything like any "downtown" of any other city I've ever seen, and hope never to again.

Actually, there are quite a number of non-chain places to eat and drink along Camelback & Indian School. I, too find myself becoming more and more critical and disappointed with Phoenix, but a lack of good, non-chain places to eat is NOT one of them. For starters, right on Camelback & 20th st is a beautiful outdoor shopping mall (a total grade above your typical strip mall) called Town & Country, with some chains, but also a couple of independent restaurants, including a Cajun place. Right by Indian School & 36th st there's a bunch of stuff, there's an Irish themed Bar/ Restaurant by Camelback & 7th, tons of stuff by 16th st & Bethany. Not in the city of Phoenix, but a few miles away at Scottsdale Rd in north Tempe/ south Scottsdale between the 202 and downtown Scottsdale is jam packed with independent restaurants. So that clearly isn't the issue.

What IS the issue, and where you are correct, steve22, is Phoenix's lack of walkability to the "good stuff." Pretty much any street with any sorts of businesses is a wide 6 lane, 40mph, pollution choked monstrosity. Having a perfect grid with perfectly straight roads going miles and miles in every direction, criss-crossing every single mile does get incredibly boring, tiring, annoying, and monotonous after awhile. Unfortunately, nothing can be done about that; you'd have to blame the US land survey system for dividing up the valley into farm roads well over a century ago. What can be fixed are redesigning certain corridors to be more pedestrian friendly. A while back I brought up the area of 7th Ave between Indian School and Camelback, which has some cool businesses but it's ruined by the street it's on. A city is more than just the sum of its parts; what makes a city feel like a city are connections between its different businesses and activities; the spontaneity of doing one thing and then doing another; the linking and bundling together of different things in the same place. If anyone here has been to San Diego lately, have you noticed what they're doing to La Jolla Blvd/ Mission Blvd (which I believe is the original Pacific Coast 101 highway?)? They're actually taking away lanes of traffic and installing traffic circles in the intersections on that one road to slow traffic down.

Just before I moved here in 2004, I believe Mill Ave used to be a 4 lane rd, and they chomped it down to two lanes with on street parking (someone correct me on this if I am wrong). Why can't they do that all over the place in certain corridors-- including parts of Camelback Rd and Scottsdale Rd? A lot of old strip malls all over the place have just one of two layers parking with the asphalt going right up to the building. I don't see why cities can't use eminent domain to take over the sidewalks and parking lots of these old strip malls, clean up the mess, and creates little strips of park space with trees, wide sidewalks, and a lane of on street parking? Strip malls could be turned into urban buildings without doing a single thing to the building itself. It's not that it's logistically impossible to make central Phoenix a more urban place, it's that there simply isn't a will to do so.

[JDish2000]

Phoenix has a car culture going on like Southern Cal.

See Barrett Jackson Auction - kidding!

What I'm trying to say is that most Phoenicians love thier automobiles....

Reliance on the car makes it tougher to build a "core" or promote it as a way for folks to have evrything in walking distance...

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by steve22

When I lived in Phoenix, my home was in the Biltmore area, which has the reputation of being the most urbanized, unique, walkable area in central Phoenix. Which might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the ridiculously busy, traffic-choked, 6-lane wide Camelback Ave. runs right through the middle of it. That sort of puts a damper on the whole walking thing. And save for a few interesting places in the Colonnade, the retail stores and restaurants in the area are limited to pretty generic, big box stuff. The Biltmore area to me was about as walkable as the vicinity immediately surrounding LAX, and looked pretty similar, actually.

And I can tell you that just about every day, on my way to work, I drove from my house to downtown, which was at about Central and McDowell. I spent a lot of time downtown, and in east central Phoenix. And actually, my description is pretty dead on, I'm afraid. Drive down Camelback, 16th, 7th, Indian School, McDowell, or Thomas in the central corridor of the city, and tell me what you see. BTW, I didn't include in my post anything about the numerous used tire & rim shops, shady apartment complexes, strip clubs, and tacky cheap Mexican food joints, b/c I thought I was being nice. It didn't look anything like any "downtown" of any other city I've ever seen, and hope never to again.

Biltmore has never been promoted as a particularly walkable area, but the recent opening of the pedestrian passage from one side of Camelback to another addresses some of the walkabilty issue. I drive the same streets you mention, and I certainly see some of what you mention, but I also see the following: wine bars, coffee houses, restaurants serving interesting cuisines such as Belgian and El Salvadoran, artisanal bakeries, galleries, the list goes on. Unfortunately, it sounds like you wanted to hate Phoenix and saw only those things that would reinforce your prejudice. That's a shame.