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For instance... we left the Dbacks game and wanted to go up to get some fish n chips at George & Dragon (its off Central), and we had to get back in the car and drive up there. Then that part of "downtown" is basically abandoned, theres nothing really there to do after dinner. Uptown isnt really a tourist hotspot in any sense of the word, unfortunately.
George and Dragon is not "downtown", so downtown's not spread out. As you note, that's uptown. A completely distinct area. If G and D was on your way home, what's the big deal about driving there? And even if it's not, if that's what you are craving, and there's no fish and chips downtown, oh, well, then you go there. No one said uptown was a tourist hotspot. It's not meant to be. But, someone at a downtown hotel who wanted to go to an English pub style place (as opposed to the Irish one, which IS downtown), would get on the light rail and go there. Or, take a cab. They do that in other big cities, too.
I'd suggest taking the rail to the games, as well, if it's at all convenient for you. It's better than paying the parking prices, whether you walk a bit further from parking or pay the higher rates nearby.
George and Dragon is not "downtown", so downtown's not spread out. As you note, that's uptown. A completely distinct area. If G and D was on your way home, what's the big deal about driving there? And even if it's not, if that's what you are craving, and there's no fish and chips downtown, oh, well, then you go there. No one said uptown was a tourist hotspot. It's not meant to be. But, someone at a downtown hotel who wanted to go to an English pub style place (as opposed to the Irish one, which IS downtown), would get on the light rail and go there. Or, take a cab. They do that in other big cities, too.
I'd suggest taking the rail to the games, as well, if it's at all convenient for you. It's better than paying the parking prices, whether you walk a bit further from parking or pay the higher rates nearby.
To be honest, Im not sure G&D is either uptown or downtown, its kind of in no-mans-land if you ask me. Regardless, its in the central core of Phoenix. My point was most large cities have a thick urban core with lots of restaurants to choose from, and umpteen blocks of densely packed things to do, which we lack. Walking 5-6 blocks in NYC is fun, walking 5-6 blocks in PHX? Not so much. Thats just the way it is. Im not comparing the two cities, just letting you know that 5-6 blocks in most areas of downtown NYC has eateries and cafes from seemingly every ethnicity, and here in PHX its just... no.
We have a lot of work to do downtown, and I like the progress I see, but its gonna be at least 10 years of constant development before I see anything even resembling a good suburban downtown in most other cities. Pro sports aside, there was more to do in Naperville, IL's downtown (population 150,000) than Phoenix's downtown.
And I live in central Scottsdale, so light rail is not even in the cards as an option to get downtown.
Ive never been to any of the establishments you've mentioned, Ill have to keep those in mind as recommendations the next time we have guests staying with us.
If people want art galleries, I always end up in Old Town, of course. The Thursday night Art Walk is always a fave with our guests. I wouldnt recommend going downtown for art, when all the high end galleries are located right next to each other in Old Town. Besides Santa Fe, I think Scottsdale has the best centralized arts district in the country.
Scottsdale is luxury art, RoRo is raw and gritty. It depends on what you want, I certainly love having both in my metro area but I have a tendency to prefer the scene downtown over the somewhat snobbier Scottsdale art galleries.
To be honest, Im not sure G&D is either uptown or downtown, its kind of in no-mans-land if you ask me. Regardless, its in the central core of Phoenix. My point was most large cities have a thick urban core with lots of restaurants to choose from, and umpteen blocks of densely packed things to do, which we lack. Walking 5-6 blocks in NYC is fun, walking 5-6 blocks in PHX? Not so much. Thats just the way it is. Im not comparing the two cities, just letting you know that 5-6 blocks in most areas of downtown NYC has eateries and cafes from seemingly every ethnicity, and here in PHX its just... no.
We have a lot of work to do downtown, and I like the progress I see, but its gonna be at least 10 years of constant development before I see anything even resembling a good suburban downtown in most other cities. Pro sports aside, there was more to do in Naperville, IL's downtown (population 150,000) than Phoenix's downtown.
And I live in central Scottsdale, so light rail is not even in the cards as an option to get downtown.
I don't think it will take 10 years for the area from I-10 south to roughly the warehouse district and 3rd age to roughly 3rd street to make for a pretty interesting area to walk around in. I've been to Naperville, it's okay but what's more eye opening to me is someone who claims to work near downtown Phoenix knows so little about it.
Once again, I'm a numbers guy, you clearly like to form opinions with no backing so here we go:
Downtown Phoenix Eateries: about 130 listed on DTPhx.org, Naperville has 40
Cultural Amenities:
13 music venues Phoenix, Naperville couldn't find any
Art galleries: Phoenix at least 2 dozen, Naperville I'm
Not seeing any
Hotel rooms: 1,000s in DT Phoenix alone, Naperville not so much
You get my point, you've made it pretty clear that you spend no time doing anything downtown, you drive by make a quick assumption because it doesn't look like Manhattan and head back to Scottsdale. Nothing wrong with that but you're not versed enough on the subject of downtown Phoenix be any kind of expert.
I don't think it will take 10 years for the area from I-10 south to roughly the warehouse district and 3rd age to roughly 3rd street to make for a pretty interesting area to walk around in. I've been to Naperville, it's okay but what's more eye opening to me is someone who claims to work near downtown Phoenix knows so little about it.
Once again, I'm a numbers guy, you clearly like to form opinions with no backing so here we go:
Downtown Phoenix Eateries: about 130 listed on DTPhx.org, Naperville has 40
Cultural Amenities:
13 music venues Phoenix, Naperville couldn't find any
Art galleries: Phoenix at least 2 dozen, Naperville I'm
Not seeing any
Hotel rooms: 1,000s in DT Phoenix alone, Naperville not so much
You get my point, you've made it pretty clear that you spend no time doing anything downtown, you drive by make a quick assumption because it doesn't look like Manhattan and head back to Scottsdale. Nothing wrong with that but you're not versed enough on the subject of downtown Phoenix be any kind of expert.
I dont claim to be a downtown expert, but I do spend every day a few short blocks from it. All one needs is two set of functional eyes to see how it lacks. Do oyu disagree? Do you wanna know why I might not know a lot about downtown? Theres nothing there (outside of the pro sports) that I cant get in Scottsdale, which is far more convenient for me. And the upside about that? I dont have to deal with rude bums in Scottsdale.
I only compared Naperville to PHX because, despite the monstrous population difference, Naperville's downtown is more successful, and more packed with people. Im talking about a suburb with a measely population of 150K people versus a city of 1.5 million! And considering PHX has 10 times the population of Naperville, but only 3 times the number restaurants (in a much larger downtown area I might add) is testament to how far behind PHX really is when it comes to certain things.
Now, while I rag on downtown PHX from time to time, its still a decent place to hang out I suppose. It just needs more.
I only compared Naperville to PHX because, despite the monstrous population difference, Naperville's downtown is more successful, and more packed with people. Im talking about a suburb with a measely population of 150K people versus a city of 1.5 million! And considering PHX has 10 times the population of Naperville, but only 3 times the number restaurants (in a much larger downtown area I might add) is testament to how far behind PHX really is when it comes to certain things.
You can attribute that to suburban sprawl, which seemed to perfectly acceptable during the latter half of the 20th Century. Phoenix, L.A., San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, and many other cities went along with building outward instead of upward, and the central cores were basically left to accommodate office workers, but little else. Essentially, all the shopping & entertainment was pushed to the suburbs, and downtown was pretty much a ghost town after 5 or 6 PM. This wasn't the case before about the 1960s: downtown was a bustling area with all the major retail & theatres. The only thing it lacked back then was skyscrapers. If the massive outward sprawl hadn't happened, downtown could have expanded & improved on what was already there before the '60s to become a major destination & a point of pride.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS
Now, while I rag on downtown PHX from time to time, its still a decent place to hang out I suppose. It just needs more.
Yes, it does need more, especially in the way of entertainment, shopping, and more highrises. It has improved considerably compared to 20 years ago ... however, other sprawling cities like San Diego, L.A., Dallas, etc., have put a great deal of effort to improve & build up their central cores, and they make Phoenix's downtown area look rather paltry in comparison. Phoenix needs to be less sprawl happy, and more focused on infill & quality growth.
You can attribute that to suburban sprawl, which seemed to perfectly acceptable during the latter half of the 20th Century. Phoenix, L.A., San Diego, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, and many other cities went along with building outward instead of upward, and the central cores were basically left to accommodate office workers, but little else. Essentially, all the shopping & entertainment was pushed to the suburbs, and downtown was pretty much a ghost town after 5 or 6 PM. This wasn't the case before about the 1960s: downtown was a bustling area with all the major retail & theatres. The only thing it lacked back then was skyscrapers. If the massive outward sprawl hadn't happened, downtown could have expanded & improved on what was already there before the '60s to become a major destination & a point of pride.
Thats weird. Downtown was more bustling in the 60s than today? I guess it makes sense because cities grow out from their core, but you'd think with all the sports venues, etc, here now that it would be busier today, especially with the U of A and ASU campuses downtown.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
Yes, it does need more, especially in the way of entertainment, shopping, and more highrises. It has improved considerably compared to 20 years ago ... however, other sprawling cities like San Diego, L.A., Dallas, etc., have put a great deal of effort to improve & build up their central cores, and they make Phoenix's downtown area look rather paltry in comparison. Phoenix needs to be less sprawl happy, and more focused on infill & quality growth.
Well, things are looking up, no pun intended. Tempe and downtown seem to be growing upwards, with a renewed interest in more urban living vs suburban living. Id like to see more skyscrapers go up downtown, but with Sky Harbor nearby, Im sure there will be height restrictions.
Thats weird. Downtown was more bustling in the 60s than today? I guess it makes sense because cities grow out from their core, but you'd think with all the sports venues, etc, here now that it would be busier today, especially with the U of A and ASU campuses downtown.
Well, things are looking up, no pun intended. Tempe and downtown seem to be growing upwards, with a renewed interest in more urban living vs suburban living. Id like to see more skyscrapers go up downtown, but with Sky Harbor nearby, Im sure there will be height restrictions.
It was around the time Maryvale was constructed that Phoenix saw its fortune in Suburban housing development (via GI Bills) and land selling. It was all torn up for horizontal auto-centric living. Here we are....
Thats weird. Downtown was more bustling in the 60s than today? I guess it makes sense because cities grow out from their core, but you'd think with all the sports venues, etc, here now that it would be busier today, especially with the U of A and ASU campuses downtown.
It used to be a very bustling area at one time when there was major retail, theatres, and things to bring people downtown. If you ever watch the movie "Psycho" from 1960, the beginning scenes were filmed in Phoenix, and there are actually some downtown street shots showing lots of people walking along the streets. Of course, that was when Phoenix was barely a mid sized city, and downtown was less vertical, but still pretty active. In the 1970s, downtown became taller, but by then most of the stores closed & moved to more suburban locations, and even the iconic Orpheum Theatre was left abandoned.
The downtown revival began slowly in the 1990s ... and we now have more entertainment/sports type of things to make it more active. What's missing is retail and better choices in dining. If & when there is a population boom in the central core, there will be more demand for these things. I also wish Phoenix could attract more high paying corporate jobs. If that should ever happen, there would be a need for a financial district, and you'd likely see a skyscraper boom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS
Well, things are looking up, no pun intended. Tempe and downtown seem to be growing upwards, with a renewed interest in more urban living vs suburban living. Id like to see more skyscrapers go up downtown, but with Sky Harbor nearby, Im sure there will be height restrictions.
The Sky Harbor reason is a tired out excuse. I've mentioned before that other cities with airports close to downtown still manage to have tall skylines. San Diego is one good example. They have height limits of 500 feet for their buildings, but their downtown has still become more vertical and impressive even with the limits. Phoenix doesn't really have any height limits, but any kind of downtown highrise still needs to get FAA approval. The Central Corridor area north of downtown doesn't have any kind of restrictions as far as I know, and that would also be a good location for taller buildings.
I dont claim to be a downtown expert, but I do spend every day a few short blocks from it. All one needs is two set of functional eyes to see how it lacks. Do oyu disagree? Do you wanna know why I might not know a lot about downtown? Theres nothing there (outside of the pro sports) that I cant get in Scottsdale, which is far more convenient for me. And the upside about that? I dont have to deal with rude bums in Scottsdale.
Sure you do. They just drive really nice cars there and aren't homeless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIG CATS
I only compared Naperville to PHX because, despite the monstrous population difference, Naperville's downtown is more successful, and more packed with people. Im talking about a suburb with a measely population of 150K people versus a city of 1.5 million! And considering PHX has 10 times the population of Naperville, but only 3 times the number restaurants (in a much larger downtown area I might add) is testament to how far behind PHX really is when it comes to certain things.
It's really an apples and oranges comparison. Not denying that Naperville has done some great things with their downtown and it is a really nice walkable area with plenty of restaurants. It's certainly the best downtown out of any of the West or South suburbs, maybe even all of the Chicago suburbs. But it's still a suburb and feels very suburban. Nothing wrong with that if that's your thing, but Phoenix's downtown actually feels like an urban downtown, even if it isn't as big or prolific as those of other cities its size. Very different feel and character to it.
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