Scottsdale City Council Quashes Light Rail Proposals (Phoenix, Tempe: construction, gated community)

[ScottsdaleMark]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

A little too late in my opinion because Glendale is also eyeing a future connection to Westgate ... and by the time that happens, the Coyotes will probably be moved to another location. Besides, even if Westgate should somehow survive this current mess, the chances of light rail spurring development in that area are slim to none. We've already seen what has happened along the existing line: still plenty of abandoned buildings & vacant lots with no sign of development. Light rail has definitely exceeded all expectations as far as ridership, but it has yet to prove that it can spark new development & revitalization.

You don't think all the current ongoing development along the light rail has anything to do with the light rail? I'm talking downtown and the Central/McDowell area where there are several large apartment/condo projects going up, all right upon or within a few minutes' walk of the rail stop.

I do agree about Glendale/Westgate, though. That land could be under-utilized for decades to come, potentially, although perhaps they'll be liberal with the bulldozing and sell a lot of it off as vacant lots, e.g. where the arena will have been and a lot of the parking lots. It would be interesting to see if the demand would be for commercial space or more residential development.

As far as Scottsdale and the light rail, I certainly don't want to pay 500 million dollars for a rail line that serves a few percent of the population of this large, spread out, 184-square-mile city. Bus lines can and do serve much more of the current city at less of a cost. This is not and will not in my lifetime be a dense urban core like DT Phoenix or DT Tempe, therefore I don't think the rail justifies itself as well as it does for a train running through those cities.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by ScottsdaleMark

You don't think all the current ongoing development along the light rail has anything to do with the light rail? I'm talking downtown and the Central/McDowell area where there are several large apartment/condo projects going up, all right upon or within a few minutes' walk of the rail stop.

There's one condo project being constructed at Central & McDowell, which is long overdue for that intersection, and it's a midrise at best. Other than that, what else is being developed along the light rail line? In the north part of midtown, there are vacant dirt lots that are ripe for development, and nothing has happened. Along west Camelback, it's the same story: lots of old deteriorated buildings that haven't be revitalized or replaced with something better. Along Apache Boulevard in Tempe & west Mesa, there has been some development, but it's hit & miss. Lots of vacant lots still remain eight years after the light rail started operation.

All in all, light rail has been a success in the ridership category, and I'll be the first one to admit that fact. The theory that it sparks development is just a theory, and it has yet to be proven. Until I see dirt moved & construction starting on the many remaining vacant lots along the line, and the old dilapidated structures revitalized or replaced, I have a difficult time believing light rail is a boon for infill development. I would like to believe it, but I need to see more evidence.

[ScottsdaleMark]

Fair enough. I will admit to being a little surprised they didn't go with something more high-rise for the space on Central since it's such a nice big lot, but I guess condos are better than nothing. There is also a smaller condo or apartment project behind it to the adjacent northwest, and another condo or apartment project a couple blocks east on McDowell, like 2st Street or so.

I think West Camelback's rundown neighborhood is the issue with lack of development there...hopefully GCU's attempted revitalization of the area will pay dividends through there eventually.

[asufan]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

There's one condo project being constructed at Central & McDowell, which is long overdue for that intersection, and it's a midrise at best. Other than that, what else is being developed along the light rail line? In the north part of midtown, there are vacant dirt lots that are ripe for development, and nothing has happened. Along west Camelback, it's the same story: lots of old deteriorated buildings that haven't be revitalized or replaced with something better. Along Apache Boulevard in Tempe & west Mesa, there has been some development, but it's hit & miss. Lots of vacant lots still remain eight years after the light rail started operation.

One could argue that the Portland Place development would not be there if not for light rail, also some of the development around downtown ASU. Wasn't Christown mall re-developed after light rail as well? You mentioned Apache Boulevard in Tempe, which will be wall to wall midrises before long, and also north of Apache in what was once known as the "Sin City" part of Tempe. I believe the Papago Park area of Phoenix has also seen some major recent development as well (offices and housing). I think there's plenty of examples if you dig a little deeper. Keep in mind, there hasn't been much time that the light rail has been complete and the economy hasn't been in the dumps. Mid rises and high rises are highly capital intensive projects and no financiers will step in on those types of projects in a questionable economy, as we saw here between 2006-2012ish.

[take57]

Originally Posted by asufan

One could argue that the Portland Place development would not be there if not for light rail, also some of the development around downtown ASU. Wasn't Christown mall re-developed after light rail as well? You mentioned Apache Boulevard in Tempe, which will be wall to wall midrises before long, and also north of Apache in what was once known as the "Sin City" part of Tempe. I believe the Papago Park area of Phoenix has also seen some major recent development as well (offices and housing). I think there's plenty of examples if you dig a little deeper. Keep in mind, there hasn't been much time that the light rail has been complete and the economy hasn't been in the dumps. Mid rises and high rises are highly capital intensive projects and no financiers will step in on those types of projects in a questionable economy, as we saw here between 2006-2012ish.

Good point. Having lived through Portland's light rail experience I can say with some certainty that development doesn't happen overnight, but it does come. The financing element remains in flux.

[Zippyman]

Originally Posted by asufan

One could argue that the Portland Place development would not be there if not for light rail, also some of the development around downtown ASU. Wasn't Christown mall re-developed after light rail as well? You mentioned Apache Boulevard in Tempe, which will be wall to wall midrises before long, and also north of Apache in what was once known as the "Sin City" part of Tempe. I believe the Papago Park area of Phoenix has also seen some major recent development as well (offices and housing). I think there's plenty of examples if you dig a little deeper. Keep in mind, there hasn't been much time that the light rail has been complete and the economy hasn't been in the dumps. Mid rises and high rises are highly capital intensive projects and no financiers will step in on those types of projects in a questionable economy, as we saw here between 2006-2012ish.

you can't credit all development to light rail though - my area of town (far north central phoenix) has seen huge growth the past couple years since the economy rebounded & we aren't anywhere near light rail. The strip malls that were empty have refilled, new multi-story apartments by the thousands, dead gas stations getting bulldozed & rebuilt, semi-custom homes being packed in like sardines.. light rail didn't do any of that.

[asufan]

Originally Posted by Zippyman

you can't credit all development to light rail though - my area of town (far north central phoenix) has seen huge growth the past couple years since the economy rebounded & we aren't anywhere near light rail. The strip malls that were empty have refilled, new multi-story apartments by the thousands, dead gas stations getting bulldozed & rebuilt, semi-custom homes being packed in like sardines.. light rail didn't do any of that.

My examples were specifically areas along the light rail. Valley Native cited one development in Central Phoenix, I'm just pointing out there has been much more than one project in Phoenix along the rail lines, whether light rail was the facilitator or not can be debated.

[11Hungrybb]

Originally Posted by ScottsdaleMark

As far as Scottsdale and the light rail, I certainly don't want to pay 500 million dollars for a rail line that serves a few percent of the population of this large, spread out, 184-square-mile city. Bus lines can and do serve much more of the current city at less of a cost. This is not and will not in my lifetime be a dense urban core like DT Phoenix or DT Tempe, therefore I don't think the rail justifies itself as well as it does for a train running through those cities.

I concur. There are far better methods than a rail system. The bus lines do a fine job.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by 11Hungrybb

I concur. There are far better methods than a rail system. The bus lines do a fine job.

I, along with many, many others, won't ride a bus, but will ride rail. That isn't a good second option.

[locolife]

Originally Posted by Zippyman

you can't credit all development to light rail though - my area of town (far north central phoenix) has seen huge growth the past couple years since the economy rebounded & we aren't anywhere near light rail. The strip malls that were empty have refilled, new multi-story apartments by the thousands, dead gas stations getting bulldozed & rebuilt, semi-custom homes being packed in like sardines.. light rail didn't do any of that.

Sure you can't credit all of it, but there's been about $8.2Billion in development so far along the 20-mile line and more than 1 of those developers have flat out said if it wasn't for LRT they wouldn't have chosen the Phoenix area. It's hard to argue with that math.

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And I don't support LRT in all areas, I think going to Westgate is likely a mistake, they should attempt to connect the urban nodes that makes up Phoenix and not go too far out with LRT. Heavy rail such as commuter trains from the more distant burbs into the urban nodes would maybe make sense someday.

Some people in Phoenix seem to be stuck in the chicken and egg scenario, a lot of voters want density to exist to justify the rail when in reality that density will not occur until the LRT options are in place. Buses don't create that urban experience because they're too flexible and routes are easily moved for not much reason. Therefore businesses and urban living will not take up locations next to a rapid bus route, but rail will.

Just what I've seen in my experience. But again, I think connecting a few more urban nodes makes sense but we shouldn't be trying to connect every corner of the valley with LRT.