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I think what has hurt Phoenix is it's national political reputation in the last 10 years. We have become too conservative. There was a time we were a libertarian state which preached fiscal conservatism and social liberalism. In order to lure more Silicon Valley entrepreneurs, the state needs to do more to adopt the values these business people espouse. Highly educated people from the east coast and Silicon Valley are very liberal and our state's reputation hurts our recruiting efforts. Things we can do to help those efforts are to create state wide anti-discrimination laws against LGBT, improving education funding, improving access to healthcare, create more affordable sustainable urban living, and eliminating the anti-immigration rhetoric.
I read Troy Farah's article on VICE. It was a scathing review of Phoenix but surprisingly, he made some valid points. From a marketing standpoint, we really should stop trying to make everything beige and desert tones. We need to stop marketing ourselves as the Desert Disneyland and just market ourselves as a large modern metropolitan city. For example, at Skyharbor airport's Terminal 4 underwent a redesign but it still contained the kitsch desert themes by maintaining that ugly brown carpet and cheesy fake dark brown rock or boulder theme. Can our airport not look more modern with glass, and steel such as Chicago Ohare, or Houston Intercontinental or Orlando's airport. Just because we live in a desert, does everything need to have a desert theme or Kachina look? Would some color really hurt? Also, we need to stop building the cookie cutter tope homes with red roof tiles. That is incredibly unappealing to outsiders. Thankfully, central Phoenix is doing more to create more unique looking homes. Gilbert is also doing more to eliminate this trite image with its Morrison Ranch homes.
Why do you assume that highly educated entrepreneurs aren't conservative?
I'm both of these things and recently moved to the Phoenix area. I didn't move here because of the politics, but it's icing on the cake to me. I wouldn't say that I'm extremely conservative in all of my views, but I certainly don't care for gays, access to health care, and illegal immigrants.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,192,051 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hal Roach
Bull crap...ever hear of Peg Whitman, Carly Fiorina, Eric Schmidt? Hardly liberals. Do you ever watch CNBC or Bloomberg? There are technology executives on their every day, who aren't backing Hillary...at all. They're not pro-life, Bible thumpers, but it's a matter of taxes and economics.
I would think the CoP would at least be able to get some international flights to PHX from some of the Asian technology rich countries, but there seems to be a back room deal in place to keep pathetic LAX as the status quo.
South Dakota and Wyoming have no corporate taxes, but corporations aren't flooding into either. Sure, you can say there are no people there... but that just nullifies your argument, because obviously something more matters to them, in this case, labor force. Likewise, I remember reading this story in Oklahoma about a Houston oil company preparing to open up a new site in much smaller Bartlesville. Locals were convinced people from Houston would relocate for pretty similar reasons to what's being stated on this thread. As I recall, no one from Houston (at least not the young, wealthy ones) wanted to move. What azriverfan is stating is that Phoenix is a harder sell to the young, affluent demographic. Without that skilled labor force, those conservative executives won't have much of a company left because their talent pool will move on.
Side note: you neglected to mention that Carly Fiorina, while campaigning in Iowa, used children on a field trip nearby to speak out against abortion.
Don't hold your breath for Sky Harbor to gain new flights in the near future. Airports are surprisingly telling barometers and metrics for cities. LAX routes have very little impact on PHX (e.g. SAN has flights to Heathrow and Narita despite being close to LA, and though Philadelphia and Boston are closer to NYC than Phoenix is to LA, both cities have more international and domestic flights). Phoenix as a city has a lot going against it to allow the airport to develop further. As to why you see so many domestic and so few international flights, it's pretty simple:
1) Business: Phoenix fares reasonably well as a domestic business location and attracts business travelers from across the country because of Arizona-based companies and hubs; internationally, Phoenix is far behind other US cities, has fairly few companies operating overseas and very few international companies operating here—very low demand for international business travelers
2) Tourism: Phoenix is well known throughout the US, Canada and Mexico, and attracts millions of leisure travelers; internationally, most foreign citizens would struggle to place Phoenix on a map, and if they had to name several US cities, Phoenix likely wouldn't even come to mind, which means that Phoenix does a terrible job of marketing itself across the world as a vacation destination—as above, low demand for leisure travelers
3) Local market: PHX inbound/outbound flights cannot rely on non-locals, so the locals will need to work in tandem to support these flights. It's no secret that many people here were born in other US cities, hence in part why there's a fairly comprehensive service map, as their demand helps fill seats. However, this aspect cripples Sky Harbor on multiple counts, namely the local mindset and the local spending power. Yes, marketing companies know all this information and do study what happens at the local level. Phoenix is more inward focused, the people typically aren't very worldly, and people here in general seem more interested in seeing the US, not the world. Obviously, there are people here not like that. However, spending power really hurts Phoenix. There aren't enough people here making enough money to help sustain new flights. I would also add foreign-born population, of people who need to go "home" to visit family. Also, note that PHX has once had flights to Jamaica, Germany and Japan, all of which have since been discontinued.
Now, compare that to LA: it's a global city with a lot of inbound/outbound business travelers from across the country and world; it's a world-renowned vacation destination, could be easily identified by most foreigners and has high-demand tourism; it not only has more people, but has a lot more people who are more open to overseas travel, a much more diverse population, and more spending power among the locals (in other words, it's far easier to find enough people there with the will and means to fill every seat on flights to Paris every day for a week than it would be here). On top of that, traffic is so dense at LAX for the aforementioned reasons, that the area has multiple busy airports, such as Burbank, Long Beach and Anaheim. I would go so far as to wager that by 2020, PHX will not have gained an Asian flight, or even one to another European destination.
In my opinion, education is the biggest issue. The other makings are there.
Phoenix is trying to outrun the homebuilder image by retaining a brand identity as a desert oasis city with a developing core, and it is doing an OK job of it. Coincidentally, I was just listening to a show on NPR this morning. It was about developing communities and how people get satisfaction from the places that they live. Phoenix did not do a good job of promoting itself for decades, while places like Scottdale, did a better job of talking up the things that it did well. Now Phoenix is on board with this, and it's paying off.
Look at a place like Gilbert. You've read all about how great it is. It's so great that the word great must be a synonym for Gilbert. Personally, except for the old orange groves out in the corner near Mesa, I think Gilbert is the most homogenized, boring place out there. But ask anyone who lives there, and GILBERT IS GREAT. Not good, but GREAT. Why? Because, whatever it is that makes it so great (that I have never been able to figure out) is how Gilbert promotes itself. And it works; it attracts people who are looking for whatever greatness that Gilbert offers (that I'm not seeing).
Phoenix already offers tons of things, and it has the makings of being a great place in different ways. It's never going to be New York or fortunately, not Chicago either. But it can stand on its own brand without having to pretend to be somewhere else, or having to pretend that it's not in the middle of a huge desert. The desert defines the whole surrounding area. Might as well make the best of it.
Another issue that has plagued Phoenix is that a lot of people in this immense, low density metropolitan area don't ever go to Phoenix, so they don't recognize that anything has changed in the last year or twenty. If they do go downtown, they go to court, they go to some state office, or they go to a game. Then they go back to the 10 or the 17 and drive away. They don't see all the development that has taken place in the areas surrounding downtown. They don't drive around and look through the area. They go away and talk about downtown like it's still in the 1990s.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,604,784 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by 43north87west
In my opinion, education is the biggest issue. The other makings are there.
Phoenix is trying to outrun the homebuilder image by retaining a brand identity as a desert oasis city with a developing core, and it is doing an OK job of it. Coincidentally, I was just listening to a show on NPR this morning. It was about developing communities and how people get satisfaction from the places that they live. Phoenix did not do a good job of promoting itself for decades, while places like Scottdale, did a better job of talking up the things that it did well. Now Phoenix is on board with this, and it's paying off.
Look at a place like Gilbert. You've read all about how great it is. It's so great that the word great must be a synonym for Gilbert. Personally, except for the old orange groves out in the corner near Mesa, I think Gilbert is the most homogenized, boring place out there. But ask anyone who lives there, and GILBERT IS GREAT. Not good, but GREAT. Why? Because, whatever it is that makes it so great (that I have never been able to figure out) is how Gilbert promotes itself. And it works; it attracts people who are looking for whatever greatness that Gilbert offers (that I'm not seeing).
Phoenix already offers tons of things, and it has the makings of being a great place in different ways. It's never going to be New York or fortunately, not Chicago either. But it can stand on its own brand without having to pretend to be somewhere else, or having to pretend that it's not in the middle of a huge desert. The desert defines the whole surrounding area. Might as well make the best of it.
Another issue that has plagued Phoenix is that a lot of people in this immense, low density metropolitan area don't ever go to Phoenix, so they don't recognize that anything has changed in the last year or twenty. If they do go downtown, they go to court, they go to some state office, or they go to a game. Then they go back to the 10 or the 17 and drive away. They don't see all the development that has taken place in the areas surrounding downtown. They don't drive around and look through the area. They go away and talk about downtown like it's still in the 1990s.
You got Gilbert right, I lived in Gilbert when I lived at my aunt's place, as soon as I could afford my own dig's, I moved right to Central Phoenix, Gilbert is sooooo boring, it reminds me of Frisco, TX in the Dallas area, a pretty far out suburb that is almost entirely residential zoned and geared towards commuter families with nothing to do outside of strip malls and no decent public transportation to speak of.
You got Gilbert right, I lived in Gilbert when I lived at my aunt's place, as soon as I could afford my own dig's, I moved right to Central Phoenix, Gilbert is sooooo boring, it reminds me of Frisco, TX in the Dallas area, a pretty far out suburb that is almost entirely residential zoned and geared towards commuter families with nothing to do outside of strip malls and no decent public transportation to speak of.
You have to realize the people raving about Gilbert are married with families. It's a safe city that offers good education with friendly neighbors. If I were younger and was still looking to go out every night, Gilbert would be boring as hell. But now I am 30 with kids and for some reason farmers markets and wine bars became exciting for me
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
27,606 posts, read 14,604,784 times
Reputation: 9169
Quote:
Originally Posted by ajonesaz
You have to realize the people raving about Gilbert are married with families. It's a safe city that offers good education with friendly neighbors. If I were younger and was still looking to go out every night, Gilbert would be boring as hell. But now I am 30 with kids and for some reason farmers markets and wine bars became exciting for me
Ha, I'm older than you (no kids, and me and dear fiance don't plan to have any either), but living in the heart of the city, in a neighborhood that most suburbanites would consider "ghetto" because it's 80% "brown people" and is in Phoenix Union school district (which I know most East Valley residents consider it to be a crap district). But, public transit, amenities galore, and not having to drive more than 10 mins when I do drive are worth it.
I will be a newcomer to the Phoenix area by the end of this year. I think making a big push for google fiber or more high speed internet options (like the city-run model in Chattanooga, TN) would provide the needed incentive for some of these Tech companies. Ultimately politics and culture will be changed by the people you give the resources to do their jobs in an efficient manner. In the case of Tech Companies and creative minds, high speed internet is one such resource. Personally (while I have never lived in the area so my opinion is meaningless), I don't think there needs to be too much change in the areas of politics and/or culture in order to attract people. For one thing it's nice to have cities of varying ideologies and/or cultures. It provides actual diversity.
Why do you assume that highly educated entrepreneurs aren't conservative?
I'm both of these things and recently moved to the Phoenix area. I didn't move here because of the politics, but it's icing on the cake to me. I wouldn't say that I'm extremely conservative in all of my views, but I certainly don't care for gays, access to health care, and illegal immigrants.
I like the conservative nature of this state.
There are different forms of conservatism. Many high educated professionals are socially liberal and fiscally conservative. They register Republican and vote for conservative candidates to minimize taxes but do not share their conservative social agendas. It's rare to find high educated individuals that are socially conservative.
South Dakota and Wyoming have no corporate taxes, but corporations aren't flooding into either. Sure, you can say there are no people there... but that just nullifies your argument, because obviously something more matters to them, in this case, labor force. Likewise, I remember reading this story in Oklahoma about a Houston oil company preparing to open up a new site in much smaller Bartlesville. Locals were convinced people from Houston would relocate for pretty similar reasons to what's being stated on this thread. As I recall, no one from Houston (at least not the young, wealthy ones) wanted to move. What azriverfan is stating is that Phoenix is a harder sell to the young, affluent demographic. Without that skilled labor force, those conservative executives won't have much of a company left because their talent pool will move on.
Side note: you neglected to mention that Carly Fiorina, while campaigning in Iowa, used children on a field trip nearby to speak out against abortion.
Don't hold your breath for Sky Harbor to gain new flights in the near future. Airports are surprisingly telling barometers and metrics for cities. LAX routes have very little impact on PHX (e.g. SAN has flights to Heathrow and Narita despite being close to LA, and though Philadelphia and Boston are closer to NYC than Phoenix is to LA, both cities have more international and domestic flights). Phoenix as a city has a lot going against it to allow the airport to develop further. As to why you see so many domestic and so few international flights, it's pretty simple:
1) Business: Phoenix fares reasonably well as a domestic business location and attracts business travelers from across the country because of Arizona-based companies and hubs; internationally, Phoenix is far behind other US cities, has fairly few companies operating overseas and very few international companies operating here—very low demand for international business travelers
2) Tourism: Phoenix is well known throughout the US, Canada and Mexico, and attracts millions of leisure travelers; internationally, most foreign citizens would struggle to place Phoenix on a map, and if they had to name several US cities, Phoenix likely wouldn't even come to mind, which means that Phoenix does a terrible job of marketing itself across the world as a vacation destination—as above, low demand for leisure travelers
3) Local market: PHX inbound/outbound flights cannot rely on non-locals, so the locals will need to work in tandem to support these flights. It's no secret that many people here were born in other US cities, hence in part why there's a fairly comprehensive service map, as their demand helps fill seats. However, this aspect cripples Sky Harbor on multiple counts, namely the local mindset and the local spending power. Yes, marketing companies know all this information and do study what happens at the local level. Phoenix is more inward focused, the people typically aren't very worldly, and people here in general seem more interested in seeing the US, not the world. Obviously, there are people here not like that. However, spending power really hurts Phoenix. There aren't enough people here making enough money to help sustain new flights. I would also add foreign-born population, of people who need to go "home" to visit family. Also, note that PHX has once had flights to Jamaica, Germany and Japan, all of which have since been discontinued.
Now, compare that to LA: it's a global city with a lot of inbound/outbound business travelers from across the country and world; it's a world-renowned vacation destination, could be easily identified by most foreigners and has high-demand tourism; it not only has more people, but has a lot more people who are more open to overseas travel, a much more diverse population, and more spending power among the locals (in other words, it's far easier to find enough people there with the will and means to fill every seat on flights to Paris every day for a week than it would be here). On top of that, traffic is so dense at LAX for the aforementioned reasons, that the area has multiple busy airports, such as Burbank, Long Beach and Anaheim. I would go so far as to wager that by 2020, PHX will not have gained an Asian flight, or even one to another European destination.
I've discussed this in another thread, I want to see Phoenix develop an airport similar to Denver International Airport over by I-10 and highway 187 (east of Maricopa), but that won't ever happen anytime soon. Comparing the two is like night and day in my opinion. Hypothetically, Skyharbor could be demolished in 10-15 years and the new land could be converted to infill for residential and commercial.
You got Gilbert right, I lived in Gilbert when I lived at my aunt's place, as soon as I could afford my own dig's, I moved right to Central Phoenix, Gilbert is sooooo boring, it reminds me of Frisco, TX in the Dallas area, a pretty far out suburb that is almost entirely residential zoned and geared towards commuter families with nothing to do outside of strip malls and no decent public transportation to speak of.
That's what the suburbs are largely geared towards/favored by, raising families. Someday if/when you get married and have a family, your views will probably change towards them. All depends on the phase of life one is in.
Now back to the sub-political discussion that these threads often morph into.....blue.....red.....rep.....dem....duck season....wabbit season....
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