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As a merchant, I do take AMEX. If margins are skinny after they negotiate, I will explain AMEX is a bigger pig that Visa/MC/ and Discover. Hence, they need to add almost 2% to the total. 1.7% more matters on the bottom line for $3K-$20K transactions. I also give 2% check discounts. If I am making 50 points on a $20K transaction, by all means use your AMEX. BUt for skinny deals, I'm not absorbing them. Hence, you will see companies who refuse to take AMEX. Let's say their margin is 10%. 3.7% percent for an un-swiped transaction is 37% of the gross profit! It's not because they are worried how much "teeth" AMEX has.
This was a great response. Learned a lot. ...really good stuff there, people reading this should go back to your response
I'm also a merchant and we take Amex knowing full well they charge more. However, a lot people only have Amex and only pay with Amex so it is worth it in the end. To me a company that is going to be stingy on an extra 2% is too cheap to be involved with, and there is something wrong with them. For small transactions, i don't really care. But if I'm buying a Rolex, or paying a mover or putting in a new air conditioner, you better believe I will only choose a company that takes AMEX. Because if they screw me, I can complain to Amex and it's likely Amex will take my side. That insurance is invaluable
If it was a "HQ", full service restaurant, the OP committed "theft" too. But Two wrongs don't make a right.
To be fair, there is probably a reason the person was tipped poorly as well. The truth is always in the middle. Sure, maybe the person is a bad tipper in general but a server isn't getting a 9% tip because he or she did nothing wrong. i don't believe that for a second. You don't get a 9% tip because you are great at what you do. It's probably a combination of the server being bad and the customer being cheap.
I've read people respond saying you shouldn't eat out if you can't afford to tip. My response is people should not be in the service industry if they are unwilling to provide good service. Never understood that; your income is based on customer service but you want to be lazy and rude???
Last edited by azriverfan.; 02-05-2017 at 01:23 AM..
15% for good service is cheap. Don't kid yourself. As someone mentioned previously, it shows a lack of class and manners to set your own limits that are below the norm. Many people feel great about slighting others. That doesn't make it right nor is it something you should take such pride in.
Out of curiosity, you started a thread about moving here and type the dollar sign after the number, are you from Europe or somewhere with a different tipping culture?
I get that. I am not cheap. I tip 20% on average and more for good service. If service is average I will tip 15% and if service is bad, I still tip 10%. That being said, our society has become accustomed to tolerating bad service and we have become rather complacent.
Class goes both ways. If the server has class, it is his or her job to do their job meaning
1. Approaching your table and taking your order in a timely manner
2. Checking up on you to see if you need anything else
3. Making certain that your drinks are always filled
4. Remove old plates or dishes from your table to create room for your main entres
5. Arriving in a timely manner with your check
It's rare that a waiter will do all 5. This used to be considered basic service. Now, it is considered a luxury. And too many people tolerate less and make excuses for bad service.
Back in my day, servers not only did the above, but they did the below too
1. Packaged the food for you. They would go to the kitchen and bring you a bag of your leftovers. Or at the very least they would come to your table side and put your leftovers in the boxes at the table side. They never dropped off styrofoam containers with no bag or anything to carry it in like you experience now.
2. Ask how your meal was. If the meal was not to your standards, they would apologize and bring you another meal or comp you for a meal. You didn't receive attitude or anger. It was just understood.
3. Not hassle you about asking specific requests regarding dishes "hold this item" It was just understood that you were the customer and you could have your dish prepared how you like.
The level of service continues to fall yet the amount asked in a tip continues to rise. Therefore, I can understand why westcoastforme and others are fighting back and refusing to tip any longer since service is generally pretty lousy these days unless you dine at a fine restaurant. I think the reasons for lousy service is due to the following
After reading your post, I'm in agreement with you that service HAS fallen off the cliff especially at the $9-$12 plate locations.
Normally when I get less than ideal service, the restaurant is understaffed and our server is stressed. When that happens, some faces can easily be read that they are in a hurry. I feel pressure to order quickly and not ask for anything special. All too often, I wait way too long for refills, the check, and my change after I give him or her my credit card. I can never tip over 15% in those situations. When we are with friends, some say something to the tune; "I can see that he is busy so I still tip 20%" . My way of thinking is they have too many tables so they are making much more than they normally would. But I enjoy cooking. I can buy and make my food far less than going out. So I'm paying for the experience and because they are understaffed, I'm actually paying money to get frustrated. Now, I look around to see how many people have their food versus waiting. If I sit down and notice I'm on a crash course for bad service, we pick-up and leave. It's not worth the frustration.
This was a great response. Learned a lot. ...really good stuff there, people reading this should go back to your response
I'm also a merchant and we take Amex knowing full well they charge more. However, a lot people only have Amex and only pay with Amex so it is worth it in the end. To me a company that is going to be stingy on an extra 2% is too cheap to be involved with, and there is something wrong with them. For small transactions, i don't really care. But if I'm buying a Rolex, or paying a mover or putting in a new air conditioner, you better believe I will only choose a company that takes AMEX. Because if they screw me, I can complain to Amex and it's likely Amex will take my side. That insurance is invaluable
I too take AMEX because I sell to people all across the country. Some people have cards that double their warranty, others what Delta miles. So I absolutely take AMEX. But I never give the same deal with AMEX when I am has products with skinny margin (10-14%).
I too sell luxury items but not watches. I do know watch margins. Luxuary watches for instance have 50 points (a.k.a. 100% mark-up). 40 points on the better quality commodity lines like Seiko (lower series have lower margins). Say a Rolex is $5K. 50 points mean the cost is $2500. They call it "50 points" because if you take 50 percent off $5K, that's $2500. So "40 points" margin on a $5000 watch is $3000 cost.
There are underground authorized highend watch dealers for instance that you will NEVER see advertising online for 30%-40% off list. That means they are making 10-20 "points". At 10 points on a $20K watch, they are still making $2K on that extremely expensive watch. But it takes the same amount of time to sell a $20K watch than it does a $500 watch. So low overhead dealers can and do quietly discount IF you know where to find them. So the credit card is now un-swiped or physically NOT at a merchant (merchant pays a higher percentage of 3.75% on AMEX). Hence, 3.7%==37% of the remaining profit. If that dealer is quietly doing volume business, he is VERY much going to care about AMEX charges. So it could be said that the customer is cheap (not the merchant). And in order to deliver the best price, the merchant has to educate the customer that someone has to pay. Because taking a credit card is a real profit leak. I sell luxury items (not watches) to wealthy people who are looking to get a deal and expert verbal opinions. The average charge per person is about $4K at about 20 points margin. I very much care about 3.7% profit leak when I sell a tighter margin item that is more of a commodity. So Rolex or not. It depends where you buy it and how much they are profiting.
On smaller $$ transactions like coffee shops, a per transaction charge plus the 3% swiped charges of AMEX is significant. That's why you see some places refusing to take a credit card below $10.
For that matter, Costco (10% margin on average unless they need to honor MAP policies) goes through contortions to negotiate favorable percentages on the credit cards they take. So don't expect to buy a Rolex in the Costco jewelry case and pay with your AMEX. They aren't being "cheap" but rather paying attention to profit leaks. If you buy at Costco online, their margins are much higher. So you can use any card you want.
To be fair, there is probably a reason the person was tipped poorly as well. The truth is always in the middle. Sure, maybe the person is a bad tipper in general but a server isn't getting a 9% tip because he or she did nothing wrong. i don't believe that for a second. You don't get a 9% tip because you are great at what you do. It's probably a combination of the server being bad and the customer being cheap.
I've read people respond saying you shouldn't eat out if you can't afford to tip. My response is people should not be in the service industry if they are unwilling to provide good service. Never understood that; your income is based on customer service but you want to be lazy and rude???
I assume it was a combo. (less than ideal service and a bad tipper) erring on the cheap tipper side. The "proof" to me was when the OP experienced it 3 times and they barely go out. As I said, I literally go out about 400 times a year and spend about $50 per outing after tips for my wife and I. In the past year; ZERO modified tips. But I am very careful when I draw a line through the tip section (when I pay cash) and am careful to total it. Also, I might be considered cheap because I only tip a buck or two when I grab takeout. But now a days, there are tip jars everywhere and receipts have the TIP line in way to many non-typical tipping merchants.
We agree that the service level has dropped. There was a day when 15% was considered standard. Then it went to 18%. Now it is 20%. Years ago, all servers were paid far less hourly because of the opportunity to earn TIP's. Some states have now tightened those amounts closer to minimum wages. Others states like Alabama still pay $2.13 an hour for waitstaff.
IMHO, bartenders on busy nights bother me the most. You may wait over 5 minutes at the bar to earn the privilege to feel pressured to order. Too many times the introduction is simply "what would you like". They could double their tips from me with a simple smile and "sorry for the wait, how can I help". Because normally, you feel pressured to order NOW and I assume they expect a tip of $1 per drink. During those times, tenders are making bank, getting cash and (probably) not paying the true earnings on their taxes. In those rushed situations, I might tip a $1 on a few drinks if I got crappy service like that. I find the Yard House at West Gate (no matter how busy) actually have good bartender service. And I tip accordingly.
I get that. I am not cheap. I tip 20% on average and more for good service. If service is average I will tip 15% and if service is bad, I still tip 10%. That being said, our society has become accustomed to tolerating bad service and we have become rather complacent.
Class goes both ways. If the server has class, it is his or her job to do their job meaning
1. Approaching your table and taking your order in a timely manner
2. Checking up on you to see if you need anything else
3. Making certain that your drinks are always filled
4. Remove old plates or dishes from your table to create room for your main entres
5. Arriving in a timely manner with your check
It's rare that a waiter will do all 5. This used to be considered basic service. Now, it is considered a luxury. And too many people tolerate less and make excuses for bad service.
Back in my day, servers not only did the above, but they did the below too
1. Packaged the food for you. They would go to the kitchen and bring you a bag of your leftovers. Or at the very least they would come to your table side and put your leftovers in the boxes at the table side. They never dropped off styrofoam containers with no bag or anything to carry it in like you experience now.
2. Ask how your meal was. If the meal was not to your standards, they would apologize and bring you another meal or comp you for a meal. You didn't receive attitude or anger. It was just understood.
3. Not hassle you about asking specific requests regarding dishes "hold this item" It was just understood that you were the customer and you could have your dish prepared how you like.
The level of service continues to fall yet the amount asked in a tip continues to rise. Therefore, I can understand why westcoastforme and others are fighting back and refusing to tip any longer since service is generally pretty lousy these days unless you dine at a fine restaurant. I think the reasons for lousy service is due to the following
I agree with you but you seemed to have missed the point. We were not talking about substandard service, but rather good service. 15% for good service is inadequate and nothing one should feel proud about.
That's surprising. 15% is insufficient if the service is good and while it's "fine by you", it's insulting to your server and a low class move. Maybe go to places with a slightly lower price point to where you can feel more comfortable leaving a standard tip. Again, I hope you don't plan any repeat visits after snubbing your servers.
I had a 55 dollar bill at a restaurant here in s.d. I put in 50 cash and than put 15 on the card, I even wrote that on the total line, 50 cash+15 card=65. The waitress pocketed the 50 and charged 65 to my card. I got my money back, but when we returned a few months later she was still working there, unbelievable
IF this story is true, what is unbelievable is that you would return to that restaurant.
A 15% tip for a normal dining experience should not be insulting to anyone. People work hard for their money and if the wait staff want they should earn it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DetroitN8V
That's surprising. 15% is insufficient if the service is good and while it's "fine by you", it's insulting to your server and a low class move. Maybe go to places with a slightly lower price point to where you can feel more comfortable leaving a standard tip. Again, I hope you don't plan any repeat visits after snubbing your servers.
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As I said, I literally go out about 400 times a year and spend about $50 per outing after tips for my wife and I. In the past year; ZERO modified tips. But I am very careful when I draw a line through the tip section (when I pay cash) and am careful to total it. Also, I might be considered cheap because I only tip a buck or two when I grab takeout. But now a days, there are tip jars everywhere and receipts have the TIP line in way to many non-typical tipping merchants. 
