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Wonder how the cost compares. Also makes me remember the controversy about the Papago Freeway decades ago, when it was proposed in the 60s as an elevated road across downtown (100 feet up) and was ultimately rejected in a public vote.
Excellent point.
The cost of elevated rail is 3x the cost of conventional rail.
The Lt Rail system used in the Valley is highly covenant nationally as well as internationally by rail people because of 2 components in play.
First is EMBEDDED track.
What you will notice about Lt Rail in the Valley is the whole system has track that is embedded in the cement.
90 percent of rail in the world is runs on what we refer to as raised rail. That is track that is built on top of ballask ( rocks ) interwoven with wooden railroad railroad tyes which ultimately give you that thump thump as the train is on approach.
Embedded track is smooth and quiet but also cost twice as much.
Secondly, the Lt Rail in the Valley operates what rail people call the Rolls-Royce of trains....KinkiSharyo.
For those not familiar, KinkiShayo makes those bullet trains trains overseas that can go 200 to 300.mph.
The Lt Rail train here was the latest generation train from KinkiSharyo which the whole train world was anxiously anticipating.
I truly have to say in all my career in rail, this system here in the Valley is special.
Cost of relocating any/not as many utilities (underground or in the air) with an elevated track depending on where the pylons go, plus the overhead railway concrete structure itself with maybe elevated stations?
vs.
Cost of relocating all underground utilities directly under the ROW if the track is built right on the ground
I would guess even with the possibility of having to relocate less utilities with an elevated track (?), the cost would be much higher for that type of system, although it could go much quicker, with less stopping, than the current sytem.
An elevated system is of course more expensive but it makes more sense for longer hauls. Suggestions of extending light rail to remote locations like Westgate or Mesa Gateway Airport are absurd due to the time it would take to travel to such places. An elevated system would be much more appropriate even though more expensive.
They don't have to go underground, but they do need a dedicated roadway. They can be elevated.
Thank you very much for this information. Ahhhhh question....could you please enlightened us uninformed as to the reason why they DON'T have to go underground....and while you're at it could you please sir explain why the track is elevated in the first place.
I will sit humbly and wait your response.
Thank you very much for this information. Ahhhhh question....could you please enlightened us uninformed as to the reason why they DON'T have to go underground....and while you're at it could you please sir explain why the track is elevated in the first place.
I will sit humbly and wait your response.
Just saying that a heavy rail system needs a dedicated roadway. You don't want them to have to stop for traffic. Two obvious ways to get that are to go underground or to be elevated. Many systems do both.
Just saying that a heavy rail system needs a dedicated roadway. You don't want them to have to stop for traffic. Two obvious ways to get that are to go underground or to be elevated. Many systems do both.
OOOOKAAAYYYY thank you.
Silly me.
Have a great day!
Just saying that a heavy rail system needs a dedicated roadway. You don't want them to have to stop for traffic. Two obvious ways to get that are to go underground or to be elevated. Many systems do both.
Maybe Elon Musk's new tunnel boring invention will let every city have subways! I would imagine the cost per mile of going underground to be even more expensive than going elevated, depending on the city? Like you said many cities have both types (sometimes even three types) for their heavy rail lines (underground, elevated and ground level, but in a separate completely closed ROW, so you won't touch that third rail), such as NYC, Philly, DC, and Boston to name a few.
I don't think that many people ride the train across town so that they can commit crime. So there was a breakin right after they opened the Dunlap segment. I'm sure there were breakins before that, too. Can you say for a fact that the person who committed the breakin took the rail to get there?
.
Yes, I can. It was on the news, that not only did they see the person getting off the platform with the security camera footage, and after he was caught he admitted that's how he got there, and that he was just riding it out, (same thing could have been done on the bus, but the bus is slower and has a driver who may not remember every rider, but does see them). I'm not trying to get into some big ridiculous debate about it, nor am I saying that may people do it. Just that it gets taken advantage of very easily, by people who are looking to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Valley Native
The main issue with light rail is it's public transportation. With that, you get a fair share of bums, transients, and rude people. It's a mix of all types really. I used to come across quite a few types like that on the city bus system, and some who tried to get out of paying the fare. There should definitely be some kind of computerized or turnstyle system that makes you prove that you paid before boarding the light rail trains. But even then, it still won't completely stop the sleaze factor.
Yes and not sure how it is working now, or if the homeless shelter downtown is even still open, but all the homeless would just get free daily bus passes, (to search for work, ), but that is how they get on there, and ride for the day. (They do it because its air conditioned, and they can be left to sleep). I talked to many of them, and again, not sure if its changed, but they all knew the police would ride the light rail on Tuesday and Thursday, and they would just avoid it on those days. The light rail costs more than the bus because its quicker and costs more to operate. If they had a better way to make sure passengers were spending the few bucks it would help. Rude people are everywhere, but to bums and transients a few bucks is probably a lot of money when you have more time than you know what to do with.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cactusland
Bingo. Elevated rail would probably be a much better solution for much of the valley for tough spots to get it across.
What tough spots?? The fact that the entire city is laid out in grid and every major street has at least 3 lanes in each direction plus a turning lane, and most have room to expand beyond that. The city was designed for expansion and with this type of possibility many decades ago when originally planned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin
An elevated system is of course more expensive but it makes more sense for longer hauls. Suggestions of extending light rail to remote locations like Westgate or Mesa Gateway Airport are absurd due to the time it would take to travel to such places. An elevated system would be much more appropriate even though more expensive.
Why does how high it travel matter?? Even If its elevated it would still have stops to pick up/drop off people along the way.
You think Westgate is a remote location?? Why does time matter when those areas get plenty of traffic, and it would make sense if it would make money and reduce the amount of people on the road? This gets into more threads, but future outlook, with the highway expansion, along with the development on the west side over the last decades and the projected future development could easily support light rail destinations out to westgate, (and what will probably happen 2 or 3 decades down the road) an express stop way out in the west valley in the Litchfield park/ i10 & 303 area. If you think they don't have the demand or that westgate is a "remote location"; first they are building the highway expansion for a reason. Second, watch the news in the morning, and almost EVERY SINGLE MORNING, you will see that the heaviest traffic is on I10 in the two digit avenues heading east. It starts the earliest, and is the same way going the other direction in the afternoon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin
Just saying that a heavy rail system needs a dedicated roadway. You don't want them to have to stop for traffic. Two obvious ways to get that are to go underground or to be elevated. Many systems do both.
Where are you referencing that ANY form of rail is required to wait on vehicles?? I have never seen that for ANY TYPE of rail system. No where do the physics change, allowing a train to come to a complete stop much easier, based on whether or not there are going to be cars in its way. That's why you are not allowed to stop on the tracks, and they have the gates that come down.
Why does how high it travel matter?? Even If its elevated it would still have stops to pick up/drop off people along the way.
You think Westgate is a remote location?? Why does time matter when those areas get plenty of traffic, and it would make sense if it would make money and reduce the amount of people on the road? This gets into more threads, but future outlook, with the highway expansion, along with the development on the west side over the last decades and the projected future development could easily support light rail destinations out to westgate, (and what will probably happen 2 or 3 decades down the road) an express stop way out in the west valley in the Litchfield park/ i10 & 303 area. If you think they don't have the demand or that westgate is a "remote location"; first they are building the highway expansion for a reason. Second, watch the news in the morning, and almost EVERY SINGLE MORNING, you will see that the heaviest traffic is on I10 in the two digit avenues heading east. It starts the earliest, and is the same way going the other direction in the afternoon.
Where are you referencing that ANY form of rail is required to wait on vehicles?? I have never seen that for ANY TYPE of rail system. No where do the physics change, allowing a train to come to a complete stop much easier, based on whether or not there are going to be cars in its way. That's why you are not allowed to stop on the tracks, and they have the gates that come down.
Our light rail trains do interact with traffic. They cross city streets and often wait for traffic signals. There is only one instance of gates, on southbound Central Avenue south of Camelback, that I am aware of.
A heavy rail or commuter rail system has fewer stops than light rail. That, and the dedicated right of way, allows the train to cover longer distances more quickly at higher speeds.
Light rail is most appropriate in higher density areas. Commuter rail works to bring people from the more suburban areas to the middle of the city. Light rail moves people around in the center. A light rail link to Westgate would not be useful in bringing people from that location to downtown as it would take too long, you could do much better driving. It wouldn't be all that useful in moving people around in the vicinity of Westgate as the density isn't there, buses make more sense. Commuter rail from Westgate, though, would be a win, one could get downtown or to Tempe more quickly than driving.
Another benefit of light rail is transit-oriented development. Neighborhoods adjacent to stops tend to experience infill development. There are a boatload of apartments under construction near the Thomas, McDowell and Roosevelt stops along Central Avenue for example. That is why light rail along I-10 west of Phoenix would be misplaced. It would be more appropriate to go along McDowell or Thomas in order to benefit the adjacent neighborhoods. Light rail in the median of an Interstate highway doesn't do anything for the neighborhoods. Commuter rail along I-10 would work well, however.
Location: Live:Downtown Phoenix, AZ/Work:Greater Los Angeles, CA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbenjamin
Our light rail trains do interact with traffic. They cross city streets and often wait for traffic signals. There is only one instance of gates, on southbound Central Avenue south of Camelback, that I am aware of.
A heavy rail or commuter rail system has fewer stops than light rail. That, and the dedicated right of way, allows the train to cover longer distances more quickly at higher speeds.
Light rail is most appropriate in higher density areas. Commuter rail works to bring people from the more suburban areas to the middle of the city. Light rail moves people around in the center. A light rail link to Westgate would not be useful in bringing people from that location to downtown as it would take too long, you could do much better driving. It wouldn't be all that useful in moving people around in the vicinity of Westgate as the density isn't there, buses make more sense. Commuter rail from Westgate, though, would be a win, one could get downtown or to Tempe more quickly than driving.
Another benefit of light rail is transit-oriented development. Neighborhoods adjacent to stops tend to experience infill development. There are a boatload of apartments under construction near the Thomas, McDowell and Roosevelt stops along Central Avenue for example. That is why light rail along I-10 west of Phoenix would be misplaced. It would be more appropriate to go along McDowell or Thomas in order to benefit the adjacent neighborhoods. Light rail in the median of an Interstate highway doesn't do anything for the neighborhoods. Commuter rail along I-10 would work well, however.
Thomas for sure, the Route 29 bus sees the highest ridership of any other bus in the Valley, and goes through some of the Valleys densest areas
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), but that is how they get on there, and ride for the day. (They do it because its air conditioned, and they can be left to sleep). I talked to many of them, and again, not sure if its changed, but they all knew the police would ride the light rail on Tuesday and Thursday, and they would just avoid it on those days. The light rail costs more than the bus because its quicker and costs more to operate. If they had a better way to make sure passengers were spending the few bucks it would help. Rude people are everywhere, but to bums and transients a few bucks is probably a lot of money when you have more time than you know what to do with. 
