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Old 02-11-2017, 02:00 PM
 
4,222 posts, read 3,703,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stjoan View Post
Wow. Thanks for the map. That is really helpful to see where everyone is talking about.
You're very welcome, there's also an ever-expanding bike/walking trail system that may be of interest to you, I know most areas have some bike paths or rail trails but I find the valley to have one of the better networks I've ever seen.

It also seems that Tempe/ASU recognize that retired folks desire a urban lifestyle as well, they've made plans for a retirement highrise that would literally be right on the light rail line, in the heart of downtown Tempe and offer everything retired folks tend to look for. Might be worth checking out.

Mirabella® at ASU




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Old 02-11-2017, 05:05 PM
 
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,187,526 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife View Post

Maybe not as fast as everyone would like but there is a fair amount of expansion in the works.
I don't deny that expansions are being planned, but the whole area really needs to play catch up. It feels like a snail's pace to me, because when I lived in Asia they could really get things done, and fast. I recall two or three subway or above-ground lines being built quickly, and Phoenix takes its time just planning.

Light rail is fine and all, but for such a sprawling place, faster options are a necessity. Most cities with developed systems have combinations of local and commuter options. The light rail here is more localized, and a larger system of just light rail stops isn't very practical given how spread out things are here. The biggest issue with developing commuter rail is the people who live here, to be frank. That sort of system would require tax funding, but because it would need to serve multiple cities, it would have to be funded either by multiple cities or, more reasonably, by Maricopa County. There are still a number of municipalities here that are vehemently opposed to light rail being built within their city limits, notably Scottsdale. In reference to my previous post, it could even be at the state level if Phoenix were to revamp Union Station and put it back in use. You don't have to look too deep on this forum to see how uptight people get with any sort of tax though, and a comprehensive system will be expensive. It could, however, be much, much more beneficial to the area in the long run, but because it would require some sort of tax increase, it's going to have problems becoming a reality in the foreseeable future.
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Old 02-11-2017, 07:05 PM
 
4,222 posts, read 3,703,335 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dvxhd View Post
I don't deny that expansions are being planned, but the whole area really needs to play catch up. It feels like a snail's pace to me, because when I lived in Asia they could really get things done, and fast. I recall two or three subway or above-ground lines being built quickly, and Phoenix takes its time just planning.

Light rail is fine and all, but for such a sprawling place, faster options are a necessity. Most cities with developed systems have combinations of local and commuter options. The light rail here is more localized, and a larger system of just light rail stops isn't very practical given how spread out things are here. The biggest issue with developing commuter rail is the people who live here, to be frank. That sort of system would require tax funding, but because it would need to serve multiple cities, it would have to be funded either by multiple cities or, more reasonably, by Maricopa County. There are still a number of municipalities here that are vehemently opposed to light rail being built within their city limits, notably Scottsdale. In reference to my previous post, it could even be at the state level if Phoenix were to revamp Union Station and put it back in use. You don't have to look too deep on this forum to see how uptight people get with any sort of tax though, and a comprehensive system will be expensive. It could, however, be much, much more beneficial to the area in the long run, but because it would require some sort of tax increase, it's going to have problems becoming a reality in the foreseeable future.
I'm all for rail but those opposed to it going everywhere have some very valid concerns, most systems in the US have to be subsidized, there's no denying our country is car centric and that's not changing anytime soon. We're also, possibly, on the verge of new technological advances in self driving cars that have the potential to completely change how we move around in the future. But the biggest factor for me is that for now rail encourages denser development, we are very spread out and rail doesn't need to cover every corner of the valley. Those who don't want it can always have east Mesa, queen creek, Peoria, buckeye etc.... I'd rather see light rail focused on areas planned to be more urbanized like Tempe and central Phoenix, build those places up and let the exurbs stay suburban.

Not sure what part of Asia you were in but my experience there is that most of the areas in the US will never have that kind of density, there's just so many people in big Asian cities. I think it's a tough comparison.
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Old 02-11-2017, 07:37 PM
 
Location: PHX -> ATL
6,311 posts, read 6,754,990 times
Reputation: 7167
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife View Post
I'm all for rail but those opposed to it going everywhere have some very valid concerns, most systems in the US have to be subsidized, there's no denying our country is car centric and that's not changing anytime soon. We're also, possibly, on the verge of new technological advances in self driving cars that have the potential to completely change how we move around in the future. But the biggest factor for me is that for now rail encourages denser development, we are very spread out and rail doesn't need to cover every corner of the valley. Those who don't want it can always have east Mesa, queen creek, Peoria, buckeye etc.... I'd rather see light rail focused on areas planned to be more urbanized like Tempe and central Phoenix, build those places up and let the exurbs stay suburban.

Not sure what part of Asia you were in but my experience there is that most of the areas in the US will never have that kind of density, there's just so many people in big Asian cities. I think it's a tough comparison.
Thanks for the map locolife.

This is why I want the light rail to focus in developing closer to Phoenix/Tempe areas where urban neighborhoods seem more likely to develop. People complain about the lack of urban areas here (I know I do) and I think this would be a great way to kickstart it. In Denver, the light rail is doing a similar thing we are doing, they are much further along I would say though, and while the Downtown areas are rising up, the rest of the light rails go into very suburban areas that won't really see any increasing density. It appears in Denver they have focused on connecting employment areas, which is an interesting concept, to the Downtown area rather than focusing on neighborhood development. Though someone can correct me. I don't think this is the best model for Phoenix, we should be looking at fostering an urban downtown environment, something that Denver was able to foster through things like free public transit on two short bus lines. That and all light rails connecting to their union station in Downtown.

However, I must say I am glad to have it developing rather than not develop at all.
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Old 02-12-2017, 01:35 AM
 
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,187,526 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife View Post
I'm all for rail but those opposed to it going everywhere have some very valid concerns, most systems in the US have to be subsidized, there's no denying our country is car centric and that's not changing anytime soon. We're also, possibly, on the verge of new technological advances in self driving cars that have the potential to completely change how we move around in the future. But the biggest factor for me is that for now rail encourages denser development, we are very spread out and rail doesn't need to cover every corner of the valley. Those who don't want it can always have east Mesa, queen creek, Peoria, buckeye etc.... I'd rather see light rail focused on areas planned to be more urbanized like Tempe and central Phoenix, build those places up and let the exurbs stay suburban.

Not sure what part of Asia you were in but my experience there is that most of the areas in the US will never have that kind of density, there's just so many people in big Asian cities. I think it's a tough comparison.
Part of the gamble of this is banking on the future potential of areas. Take the current line as a good example. It links areas with established high-density, like Midtown and Downtown Phoenix to Downtown Tempe/ASU to whatever you want to call that region of west Mesa. Between those spots there isn't a lot. The rail went in the vicinity of Sky Harbor and a supplemental tram system was built to connect the two. Still, aside from that landmark there isn't much between the downtown areas of Phoenix and Tempe, but part of the gamble was to encourage denser development between, which has happened to a degree, such as the increased focus at that Gateway area, and more dense developments popping up along the line. If I recall correctly, a new stop along the existing line is to be added before it crosses into Tempe city limits.

The beauty of commuter rail is that it would effectively create hubs people could drive or bus to and then take a rapid train to downtown. Again, this would be banking on Phoenix improving downtown to a point that it employs more people, as it currently employs relatively few for a US city. Still, improving access to Downtown Phoenix would make it more inviting to developers and prospective employers. As one example, imagine a line that originates in San Tan Valley, then stops in either Queen Creek or Chandler Heights, then stops in Chandler, then stops in Tempe, then ends its route in Downtown Phoenix. This ~40 mile train has only five stops and moves faster than a light rail train. People in those cities would just go to local transit centers rather than driving all the way. Those places can retain their... let's just call it charm, and still alleviate traffic.

Not all Asian cities are that dense, nor are they planned similarly. You'd be surprised at how sprawling many of those Asian cities are, because development of outlying towns has spread borders to make one continuous metro area just as you'd find in America. Also like in most of America, often when you cross into new towns it's almost impossible to know you've done so, like transitioning between cities in the metro areas of Seoul, Tokyo, Jakarta and Hanoi. When I travel, I feel like I take a little piece of where I left and patch it into my being, because every single time I learn something new and usually have inspirational moments about myself and what I need to do with my life. Likewise, I think cities can learn from others. While Phoenix is at a historic disadvantage in that it was founded late and other cities had established themselves better by then (when it was settled in 1867, New York already had more people than Phoenix does today and Los Angeles was entering a rapid expansion that would last for over a century), it's at a current advantage in that it can learn from mistakes other cities made and make itself better. Even notoriously car-dependent cities like Los Angeles and Dallas have decent rail networks. As a side note, I can't wrap my head around how anti-tax people are here, even when it comes to improved public transit, yet they aren't complaining about the high insurance rates and registration fees.
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Old 02-13-2017, 06:16 AM
 
Location: northern Vermont - previously NM, WA, & MA
10,731 posts, read 23,698,147 times
Reputation: 14591
From a tourist/visitors perspective I ended up having a pretty fun weekend in Phoenix enjoying the bars and restaurants in the area thanks in large part to the light rail. I stayed at the Hilton on Central so I was able to get everywhere from Happy Hour in Tempe, to dinner in Downtown, Mai Thais at Hulas in Uptown, to nightlife at Charlies on Camelback & 7th. It's always nice when you can visit a city, go out and have fun and not have to worry about driving or having to shell out more money to bounce around on Uber.

Quote:
Originally Posted by exit2lef View Post
A north-south line along Scottsdale Road would be a popular and logical route, but Scottsdale continues to resist all efforts to build rail within its borders, so that particular expansion is unlikely to occur.
I'm pretty sure I would have included Scottsdale in my plans as I'm sure many tourists would if Scottsdale was on the light rail network, especially since it has an airport connection. Scottsdale has plenty to keep one entertained, as long as you are staying in Scottsdale, and not fetching to go anywhere else for the night. I guess that's what the locals want but it seems like a lot of missed opportunity for Scottsdale when looking at a bigger picture. Don't see the problem with putting the line on Scottsdale Rd in South Scottsdale, it's an otherwise dated strip mally road that could use some renewed development. I guess make a clause to permanantly terminate the line at Camelback so that it doesn't ruffle the feathers of those in North Scottsdale.

Last edited by Champ le monstre du lac; 02-13-2017 at 07:39 AM..
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Old 02-13-2017, 08:20 AM
 
9,576 posts, read 7,267,319 times
Reputation: 14001
Quote:
Originally Posted by dvxhd View Post
As one example, imagine a line that originates in San Tan Valley, then stops in either Queen Creek or Chandler Heights, then stops in Chandler, then stops in Tempe, then ends its route in Downtown Phoenix. This ~40 mile train has only five stops and moves faster than a light rail train. People in those cities would just go to local transit centers rather than driving all the way. Those places can retain their... let's just call it charm, and still alleviate traffic.
If the Phoenix to Tucson rail line comes to fruition, it looks like they will be using that San Tan Valley to downtown Phoenix rail line/ROW that is already in place there. Depending on whether they will be putting in additional lines and/or just leasing the current line for the owner, they could easily just "overlay" a commuter line in that section when the Phoenix to Tucson train is not running.

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Old 02-13-2017, 08:23 AM
 
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
5,649 posts, read 5,928,076 times
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As others have said, Im sure its great for those who live right by it, but for those that don't, its practically useless. Plus, its slow and stops too much, especially on Central. I didn't see what the big deal was. I remember seeing bicycle riders on Central making more progress than the light rail was doing at the time.
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:01 AM
 
1,629 posts, read 2,618,672 times
Reputation: 3510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stjoan View Post
Thanks for the info. I saw the train at Sky Harbor and it looked so fun! Too bad about Scottsdale...why wouldn't they want a route there? I visited there on my last trip, and it was very congested and crowded in the streets. I would think public transport would be great for tourism there.
The real reason Scottsdale is opposed to a rail line is classism, plain and simple. It isn't about drunken ASU students accessing Old Town via light rail. It is unfortunately to keep those who rely on public transportation from more readily accessing Scottsdale. The mayor of Scottsdale, Jim Lane, has openly admitted that he is opposed to light rail expansion because the majority of Scottsdale residents have the means to afford their own cars. I think a secondary issue would be the removal of traffic lanes from Scottsdale Road.
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Old 02-13-2017, 09:28 AM
 
9,189 posts, read 16,577,748 times
Reputation: 11291
Quote:
Originally Posted by new2colo View Post
The real reason Scottsdale is opposed to a rail line is classism, plain and simple. It isn't about drunken ASU students accessing Old Town via light rail. It is unfortunately to keep those who rely on public transportation from more readily accessing Scottsdale. The mayor of Scottsdale, Jim Lane, has openly admitted that he is opposed to light rail expansion because the majority of Scottsdale residents have the means to afford their own cars. I think a secondary issue would be the removal of traffic lanes from Scottsdale Road.
This is BS. It's about being conservative with tax dollars, not some elitism conspiracy. The determination has been made that the incredible investment simply isn't a good use of tax-payer funds. I could see the counterargument but that's the real reason why it won't happen in Scottsdale anytime soon.
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