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Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,191,283 times
Reputation: 1691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
You keep focusing on the core, which I already said is denser in Atlanta. We don't disagree, both cores make up very small parts of both cities and my point is Phoenix on average is much denser.
Your point about construction material doesn't make much sense to me, there are no less than 6 cranes up in Tempe right now and they all are building with concrete and steel. The massive project next to Vela is about to go vertical as is the Pier, another marina heights size project right on the lake. On univsersity and 7th there is another double tower complex riding 20 or so stories. And I'm missing a lot.
Downtown Phoenix just topped off the banner university tower, RP23 is under construction, Hampton Inn is under construction as is the Circles tower.All of these are Steel.
Old Town is currently selling million dollar condos and Gilbert has the highest median income in the country.
I don't see a shortage of money here. And if you measured the percentage growth rate of the Phoenix downtown core it must be doing really well right now.
I think perhaps you missed the part about residences. Those domiciles can't be built in Phoenix when there's not the money there to recover development costs. You successfully cited a lot of examples that are mostly excluding residences, and I was relaying a story I read about development.
In the end, I think you will still fail to see any shortcoming in Phoenix for whatever pathological reason you have. Oddly you never address things like in the link below, but I have a feeling you'll still promulgate this place as paradise when this becomes the norm. You know, it is possible for you to like a place and still be critical of its faults and address its challenges. Funny thing: attitudes like yours are among the many reasons I don't want to stay in Phoenix. I just don't think it has much future when there's such rampant shortsightedness and burying heads in the sand.
I think perhaps you missed the part about residences. Those domiciles can't be built in Phoenix when there's not the money there to recover development costs. You successfully cited a lot of examples that are mostly excluding residences, and I was relaying a story I read about development.
In the end, I think you will still fail to see any shortcoming in Phoenix for whatever pathological reason you have. Oddly you never address things like in the link below, but I have a feeling you'll still promulgate this place as paradise when this becomes the norm. You know, it is possible for you to like a place and still be critical of its faults and address its challenges. Funny thing: attitudes like yours are among the many reasons I don't want to stay in Phoenix. I just don't think it has much future when there's such rampant shortsightedness and burying heads in the sand.
There are over 20 steel construction residential buildings over varying size in downtown and uptown (44 monroe, Portland on the Park, the Lex, Executive Tower, Summit, Portland Place, Orpheum Lofts, cityscape residences and I'm no going to list every one), there are 3 more under construction now (block 23, the Stewart, and Derby) and a half a dozen others at various stages of proposal (az center, 3 Roosevelt Towers, Central Park). These are facts. Add to that the additional steel midrises at 24th/camelback (optima), downtown Tempe (W6, Aura, Jefferson, Bridgeview, the Pier, and more). Then you've got old town with multiple optima projects, the waterfront condos, safari Lofts... it goes on and on...
I see plenty of issues Phoenix needs to address and I mention them regularly. Education, continuing to build our urban cores, balancing infill with sprawl growth, and maintaining a strong economic position in a globalized environment. You're so blinded by negativity you can't admit to a single positive thing about the valley, which is extremely short sighted considering you're the only one continually throwing out personal jabs here. Every single claim you've made I've countered with actually facts that show it is not accurate. I'm certainly not asking you to stay here nor is anyone else, there are multiple roads that lead out and you're free to take one at any time. If you don't like attitudes of residents that take pride in their hometown best of luck finding a place you're happy, my experience proves that homers exist everywhere and Phoenix being a more transient city has less of a homer syndrome than most other places.
The idea that you're going to "run away" from the impacts of Global climate change is beyond silly. Every city is facing challenges with this, I'd rather take on hotter/drier conditions than deal with a city that's going to be underwater.
Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,191,283 times
Reputation: 1691
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
There are over 20 steel construction residential buildings over varying size in downtown and uptown (44 monroe, Portland on the Park, the Lex, Executive Tower, Summit, Portland Place, Orpheum Lofts, cityscape residences and I'm no going to list every one), there are 3 more under construction now (block 23, the Stewart, and Derby) and a half a dozen others at various stages of proposal (az center, 3 Roosevelt Towers, Central Park). These are facts. Add to that the additional steel midrises at 24th/camelback (optima), downtown Tempe (W6, Aura, Jefferson, Bridgeview, the Pier, and more). Then you've got old town with multiple optima projects, the waterfront condos, safari Lofts... it goes on and on...
I see plenty of issues Phoenix needs to address and I mention them regularly. Education, continuing to build our urban cores, balancing infill with sprawl growth, and maintaining a strong economic position in a globalized environment. You're so blinded by negativity you can't admit to a single positive thing about the valley, which is extremely short sighted considering you're the only one continually throwing out personal jabs here. Every single claim you've made I've countered with actually facts that show it is not accurate. I'm certainly not asking you to stay here nor is anyone else, there are multiple roads that lead out and you're free to take one at any time. If you don't like attitudes of residents that take pride in their hometown best of luck finding a place you're happy, my experience proves that homers exist everywhere and Phoenix being a more transient city has less of a homer syndrome than most other places.
The idea that you're going to "run away" from the impacts of Global climate change is beyond silly. Every city is facing challenges with this, I'd rather take on hotter/drier conditions than deal with a city that's going to be underwater.
There's some pretty considerable fine print to your list there, including many I think you just assumed have steel frames without knowing. 44 Monroe and Summit were built pre-recession and amidst speculation on a hot market; Portland on the Park, the Lex, and Portland Place are questionable based on their respective heights (steel frames mean being able to build taller, whereas wood has limits); Executive Tower and Orpheum Lofts were built long before the modern rapid growth; Cityscape is mixed-use and can supplement income from other tenants, and is much smaller than it was planned.
You certainly don't seem to present any sign that you see issues with Phoenix. Every city on Earth has its problems, yet you make habitually false statements about this city because you can't see where it needs to improve. I think you have pride in this town to a level that's so excessive you can't or won't see flaws. And these "facts" you present to counter me (as per above) are usually wrong or flawed.
Another big issue you have is making assumptions. I'm not leaving this godforsaken town because of climate change, nor did I state that's why I was leaving. I'm not going to rattle off the many, many, many reasons I want to leave (weather/climate not really being issues). I think it's a safe assumption you didn't read that article. Phoenix really has little-to-no risk of being underwater, but this development you're so proud of is irresponsible and isn't engineered for the environment and seems to be exacerbating the heat. While it may still be livable, for many it may become unbearable (just think of people who move here to escape extreme cold temperatures). While I don't know for sure (though I do know that you don't know either, though you will profess you do), it seems likely that Phoenix is going to reach the peak of its prosperity soon ifit doesn't plan smarter (I emphasized the "if" because you seem to have trouble with details... and see what you want to see).
Recently traveled to Atlanta with my kids and showed them the city.
Daughter's comment about the city made me think...
When asked, "are you enjoying Atlanta?" she replies "I guess, but I'm a city girl..."
Initially I laughed and said "Huh? You don't even like riding the light rail or bus, you're not a city girl. You're suburban..." But now I'm wondering what the consensus is.
I understand Atlanta can have a very country feel to it almost to the core of the city, however Atlanta does also have city in ways that I've always felt Phoenix doesn't. From my perspective, Phoenix to me feels like a well planned suburb all the way into Downtown Phoenix. Doesn't feel "city" to me. But then again, although I am from Atlanta, I've also lived in places like Brooklyn, DC, Los Angeles and the Bay Area. I can agree that my hometown Atlanta isn't "city city" but I don't agree feel that Phoenix is the "city" that Atlanta isn't.
Just feels like a huge suburbia to me.
What do you guys think?
Your post is not new or particularly enlightening. This issue has been discussed ad nauseum for years much like the heat. Yes...yes..yes. Phoenix is not a city because it doesn't have tall buildings in downtown. That is the gist of your argument. Yawn
Density doesn't necessarily correlate to urbanity. Phoenix's metro is denser largely because it is flatter and gridded overall, which is a better setup than suburban Atlanta. But it appears that the core of Atlanta is traditionally more urban than Phoenix's.
There are over 20 steel construction residential buildings over varying size in downtown and uptown (44 monroe, Portland on the Park, the Lex, Executive Tower, Summit, Portland Place, Orpheum Lofts, cityscape residences and I'm no going to list every one), there are 3 more under construction now (block 23, the Stewart, and Derby) and a half a dozen others at various stages of proposal (az center, 3 Roosevelt Towers, Central Park). These are facts. Add to that the additional steel midrises at 24th/camelback (optima), downtown Tempe (W6, Aura, Jefferson, Bridgeview, the Pier, and more). Then you've got old town with multiple optima projects, the waterfront condos, safari Lofts... it goes on and on...
I see plenty of issues Phoenix needs to address and I mention them regularly. Education, continuing to build our urban cores, balancing infill with sprawl growth, and maintaining a strong economic position in a globalized environment. You're so blinded by negativity you can't admit to a single positive thing about the valley, which is extremely short sighted considering you're the only one continually throwing out personal jabs here. Every single claim you've made I've countered with actually facts that show it is not accurate. I'm certainly not asking you to stay here nor is anyone else, there are multiple roads that lead out and you're free to take one at any time. If you don't like attitudes of residents that take pride in their hometown best of luck finding a place you're happy, my experience proves that homers exist everywhere and Phoenix being a more transient city has less of a homer syndrome than most other places.
The idea that you're going to "run away" from the impacts of Global climate change is beyond silly. Every city is facing challenges with this, I'd rather take on hotter/drier conditions than deal with a city that's going to be underwater.
I think you do a pretty good job accentuating the positive along with what improvements could be made.
Phoenix isn't a perfect utopia and never will be. Climate change is one reason why the summers are hotter than ever and it needs to be addressed instead of swept under the rug.
What part of the world isn't affected by global warming, and what large cities don't have problems like traffic congestion, air quality, crime, poverty, and budget issues? There is no perfect utopia anywhere.
That poster is obviously unhappy here and he should really try to find another place to live if he thinks life in Phoenix is miserable.
Easy access is how I describe it. Be it one of the mutilple/growing urban areas, mountain preserves, jobs, homes or entertainment. It's all pretty convenient minus the coyotes, hopefully they can fix that soon.
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