"Lack of Culture/Things to DO" in Phoenix?? Huh?? (skyscrapers, move)

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by Saul

Actually, I think a travel guide where the writer gives his/her own honest opinion is refreshing. Most travel guides simply pick out three or four things to do in each area/city and write about them in gushing terms, regardless of how boring they are. They obviously do this to sell more books. The Rough Guides guy gives his honest assessment. You use the word "bias" when in fact it is just his opinion. I think his approach results in more effective travel guidance, not less. For example, how can I make a decision on where I want to go if every location that is described in a travel guide is given rave reviews.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the Rough Guides are trash. If a team of writers gave their varied opinions on a place, it might be interesting, but with the Rough Guides, the solo author's voice is so strong that one opinionated writer can present a completely distorted picture of a destination. That's exactly what Greg Ward does in the hideous Rough Guide to the Southwest. Not only does his contempt for Phoenix pervade the book, but the information presented is just plain bad. For example, the current Rough Guide restaurant listings for Phoenix are a joke. With the exception of Pizzeria Bianco, the listings fall incredibly short of capturing the best food in the City. Alice Cooper'stown as one of the area's best restaurants? I don't think so -- especially when the author ignored numerous much better, nationally recognized places because he couldn't walk to them or because, Heaven forbid, they were in strip malls. As a result, I believe that the author was indeed biased. It seems he came to Phoenix with a predisposition against Phoenix and looked around only enough to find what he needed to reinforce that predisposition.

[Saul]

Originally Posted by Saul

Okay Sunvixen, I don't have time to list things myself because I'm a busy attorney, so I'll let Yahoo travel do the arguing for me. Here is the Yahoo travel description of Phoenix:

"The state capital and largest city in Arizona, PHOENIX holds only minimal appeal for tourists.

I received a note from the moderator stating that copyright law does not allow copying of large portions of copyrighted works, but smaller portions are apparently a "fair use." I fully respect that position. Therefore, I am posting a modified version of my original post that should fall within the ambit of the "fair use" doctrine.

Okay Sunvixen, I don't have time to list things myself because I'm a busy attorney, so I'll let Yahoo travel do the arguing for me. Here are excerpts from the Yahoo Travel description of Phoenix:

"The state capital and largest city in Arizona, PHOENIX holds only minimal appeal for tourists. ... Phoenix now has a deserved reputation as the most unpleasant city in the Southwest – Las Vegas with no casinos, or LA with no beach. Above all, it's hot; between June and August daytime highs average over 100°F, making it the hottest city outside the Middle East. ...

... Unlike golf, tennis and shopping, sightseeing rarely ranks high on the agenda – which is just as well, since there's a good deal of truth in the charge laid by Phoenix's older arch-rival, Tucson, that the city is sorely lacking in culture and history. ... Phoenix is short of must-see attractions. In fact, if you're on a touring vacation, you'd miss little if you bypassed it altogether; a day at one of the city's plentiful upscale malls is probably as authentic and enjoyable an experience as Phoenix has to offer." (emphasis added)(please refer to the Yahoo Travel website for the full quote)

Copyright © 2008 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. Portions copyright © 2008 Rough Guides

and here are excerpts from the Yahoo Travel description of NYC:

"The most beguiling city in the world, New York is an adrenaline-charged, history-laden place that holds immense romantic appeal for visitors. ... buildings that are icons to the modern age ... midtown skyscrapers ... the Staten Island ferry, you really would have to be made of stone not to be moved by it all. There's no place quite like it....

You could spend weeks in New York and still barely scratch the surface, .... There are the different ethnic neighborhoods, ... Chinatown and the traditionally Jewish Lower East Side ... SoHo, TriBeCa, and the East and West Villages. ... celebrated architecture of corporate Manhattan ... There are the museums, not just the Metropolitan and MoMA, but countless other smaller collections that afford weeks of happy wandering. ... The more established arts – dance, theater, music – are superbly catered for; and New York's clubs are as varied and exciting as you might expect. ... the choice of shops is vast, almost numbingly exhaustive in this heartland of the great capitalist dream." (emphasis added) (Please refer to the Yahoo Travel website for the full quote)

Copyright © 2008 Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved. Portions copyright © 2008 Rough Guides

Sunvixen - You requested specifics about things that you can't find in Phoenix. The above quote about NYC lists a bunch. If you would like some more, please specify.

[Saul]

Originally Posted by silverbear

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I think the Rough Guides are trash. If a team of writers gave their varied opinions on a place, it might be interesting, but with the Rough Guides, the solo author's voice is so strong that one opinionated writer can present a completely distorted picture of a destination. That's exactly what Greg Ward does in the hideous Rough Guide to the Southwest. Not only does his contempt for Phoenix pervade the book, but the information presented is just plain bad. For example, the current Rough Guide restaurant listings for Phoenix are a joke. With the exception of Pizzeria Bianco, the listings fall incredibly short of capturing the best food in the City. Alice Cooper'stown as one of the area's best restaurants? I don't think so -- especially when the author ignored numerous much better, nationally recognized places because he couldn't walk to them or because, Heaven forbid, they were in strip malls. As a result, I believe that the author was indeed biased. It seems he came to Phoenix with a predisposition against Phoenix and looked around only enough to find what he needed to reinforce that predisposition.

As I stated before, Greg Ward's opinion is just another opinion in a great sea of opinions. It is no better or no worse than anyone else's opinion. It should be stressed, however, that Mr. Ward does not display contempt for the state of Arizona or the southwest in general, only Phoenix (and, to a lesser degree, Tuscon). For example, here is a link to his description of Arizona: Arizona

He speaks glowingly about AZ in the description, but does say the following about PHX and Tuscon:

"In Phoenix, the capital, well over a million souls are scattered over a 500-square-mile morass of shopping malls and tract-house suburbs; Tucson is rather more appealing, but is still liable to wear thin after a couple of days."

Again, this is just his opinion. Some people like strip malls and CCHs (cookie cutter homes) and some people don't.

I think your view of travel experts is that they should be more like unbiased new reporters. I think they should be more like movie critics. You know, you choose the one with an opinion most like your own and you stick with them.

[vegaspilgrim]

I find that outsiders of the region, such as the author of the Southwest/ Arizona Rough Guides exaggerate the role of Native American culture in Arizona and Phoenix. Don't get me wrong-- Native Americans are an EXTREMELY crucial part of what Arizona is all about. The whole northern half of the state is dominated by Native Americans-- Dine (Navajo), Havasupai, Hualapai, Hopi tribes, Apache, just to name a few. Any one who has ever been to Flagstaff knows this. Then there are the Tohono O'odham in southern AZ and many other tribes right in the Phoenix area. In Guadalupe and parts of Tucson there are Yaqui villages-- a people straddling both sides of the US-Mexican border. I'm taking a class right now on "Native American Literature," so I am definitely aware of the diverse peoples who live in this region. And yet, truth is, in Phoenix Native Americans are a very small minority and aren't really that relevant to most residents' lives. I think people like the Rough Guides author expect Phoenix and other southwestern cities to be a lot more "Indian" and romantically "southwestern" than it really is. It's basically a middle-American kind of city with a huge Hispanic population (another group ignored and underrepresented by both residents and travel writers from other regions), plopped down in the middle of the desert. People like the Rough Guides authors come in with a lot of preconceived notions and stereotypes and are disappointed that they don't see Indians in costumes selling fry bread at every corner. It sounds ridiculous, but that's how some ignorant people think.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by Saul

I think your view of travel experts is that they should be more like unbiased new reporters. I think they should be more like movie critics. You know, you choose the one with an opinion most like your own and you stick with them.

Actually, I can appreciate the critic role for a travel writer, but good critics don't let their personal biases and outmoded stereotypes exert undue influence over their writing. A good restaurant critic would not review a Chinese restaurant and say, "This restaurant is awful because I hate Chinese food." A good film critic would not review a comedy and say, "This movie is awful because I hate comedies." Instead, a good critic would review each on its own terms. Greg Ward has basically reviewed Phoenix and said, "This city is awful because I don't like decentralized, car-oriented cities without casinos or beaches." That's neither fair nor helpful.

The energy Ward wasted on Phoenix-bashing would have been far better spent in finding better restaurants to list and providing more detail about Phoenix area attractions completely overlooked in the Rough Guides. It sounds like he moped his way around Downtown on a hot summer day and then wrote his diatribe against the city. That's like a movie critic walking out after the first scene or a restaurant critic giving up on a meal after the appetizer.

[Sunvixen]

Originally Posted by steve22

From the aforementioned yahoo travel description, which I had not read before:

"the most unpleasant city in the Southwest – Las Vegas with no casinos, or LA with no beach."

Actually, that's pretty dead on, IMO.

Well it seems like if a hopping downtown is important to you, then you should move to a city with one. Beach or no beach, I could never live in LA. I've always thought it was the most overrated city in the world, sorry, no offense.

Perhaps it is because my husband and I travel as much as we do that we would be happy living someplace where we can enjoy quieter things (and hot, dry weather)...We go to Europe at least once a year for a couple weeks...We often take long weekends to NYC, Chicago, Toronto, Mackinac Island, and try to get to Florida at least twice a year....maybe we get enough of that "big, boisterous downtown city" feel and have probably seen enough art and tasted enough wine to write our own book. LOL!


As of today, I can tell you that I'd love to be in Phoenix as it is an early "mold season" right now and we are all sick!!! Grrr! This is followed by upcoming allergy season, then mold season again. Then flea season if you go near sand anywhere. Then it will be about Mid November and we will be getting ready for snow and cold/flu season. Hopefully I will be in AZ by then, enjoying all those "nothing to do" things. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.

[sablebaby]

Originally Posted by Sunvixen

As of today, I can tell you that I'd love to be in Phoenix as it is an early "mold season" right now and we are all sick!!! Grrr! This is followed by upcoming allergy season, then mold season again. Then flea season if you go near sand anywhere. Then it will be about Mid November and we will be getting ready for snow and cold/flu season. Hopefully I will be in AZ by then, enjoying all those "nothing to do" things. Ahhhhhhhhhhhh.

Well, we have our stuff too. The last few days our ozone has been bad and I get sick. We also have lots of allergies here. Then it will be "burn your butt off" season.

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by sablebaby

Well, we have our stuff too. The last few days our ozone has been bad and I get sick. We also have lots of allergies here. Then it will be "burn your butt off" season.

Take it from sablebaby-- she and other Arizona natives (and long term residents) know what they're talking about! I've been having really bad allergies here too, the last month it seems. I can't even get decent sleep anymore; every morning around 5:00am it seems like I wake up from allergy problems. I also like the way you put it, sablebaby, of the months coming up ahead. Fortunately, I'll be out of here by the time it starts getting really hot.

[Sunvixen]

Oh, thanks ya'all! But, we've never had problems with anything but mold and damp conditions and cold. I was speaking of the general population. But that also why we are going to rent for our first year, to make SURE it isn't an issue.

It's...sniff...SO cold here. Still. sniff.

Cold.

Sniff.





I need ...

[nitram]

Most people have allergies at various. Allergies can be complicated by a deviated septum and inflamed turbinates in your nose. A vist to a Ear Nose and Throat doctor can determine if medicine treatment or nasal surgery will help alleviate your problem.
I recently had nasal surgery and it has relieved nearly 40 years of frustration and misery with allergies.