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2. Phoenix area is much bigger with close to 5 million while Las Vegas is under 2. This translates into more stable markets, more diversity, better facilities, more sports, culture, cuisine etc.
Las Vegas Metro is at 2.2 million as of 2018.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murricula!
5. Phoenix area is more diverse. Most people living here are from California, Illinois, New York, Washington, Oregon, Dakotas, Minnesota etc. "Native" Arizonans are a minority now.
OK, are you suggesting that is not so in Las Vegas? There are Vegas residents from all over the world living there. Most are transplants, just like in Phoenix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murricula!
7. if you compare to places like Vegas or Southern California you will find that moving around the Valley (i.e. Phoenix area) is much easier and as a result enjoyable.
Traffic in Las Vegas has a smooth flow and is easy to guide through. Freeways are hardly ever backed up. Project Neon expansion is now complete and traffic isn't any worse than Phoenix is.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murricula!
One more reason to steer towards Phoenix (in addition to being free of natural disasters such as earthquakes, tornadoes and such, since we're talking about Mother Nature here...).
Las Vegas doesn't have any of those natural disasters either. Yes, they have a looming water supply issue, but that's about it for natural disasters (drought). Occasional flooding as does Phoenix.
I like the Phoenix area a lot and am actually considering a move there. I agree with a lot of your points but I had to point out a few that are inaccurate.
The only reason I hesitate moving to Phoenix is I'd take a $10/hr wage decrease...so I am trying to weigh whether that is worth it or not. Cost of living calculators indicate Phoenix is about 6% lower overall than Las Vegas, with apartment rent prices being nearly equal.
Last edited by Code Stemi; 12-06-2018 at 09:52 PM..
If you want better casinos and entertainment, lower housing costs, and dont mind coldish winters then it's Vegas. If you want mild winters , a bigger city with Tech growth then its Phoenix.
You will be better off in Arizona then in Nevada (i.e. better off in the Phoenix area than in Las Vegas) . When I say "Phoenix" I refer not just the city but mostly to many of its suburbs, the same for Vegas.
1. Phoenix is a safer place. A cursory look at a number of statistics (such as crime stats) reveals that Las Vegas has a much bigger safety issue - there's more crime there then in Phoenix.
2. Phoenix area is much bigger with close to 5 million while Las Vegas is under 2. This translates into more stable markets, more diversity, better facilities, more sports, culture, cuisine etc.
3. Phoenix area has more jobs - many more Fortune 1000 companies call Phoenix their home. Especially the tech is growing: Intel is building the most advanced chip manufacturing in Chandler, expected to bring 10,000 jobs, Apple is coming to Mesa, Gilbert is getting more software and IT companies, Scottsdale is already tech mecca etc.
4. Arizona in general relies more on "charter" schooling system, which gives you more flexibility in choosing the right schools, and doesn't tie you to a particular area as much as it does in most other places. Generally schools are better as a result.
5. Phoenix area is more diverse. Most people living here are from California, Illinois, New York, Washington, Oregon, Dakotas, Minnesota etc. "Native" Arizonans are a minority now. Phoenix is very cosmopolitan that way. This is evident in Arizona politics as well, with both parties being on equal footing and the conservative/liberal discourse as the one of most balanced in the nation.
6. Phoenix suburbs are some of the most desirable in the nation: Scottsdale, Gilbert, Chandler, Tempe, Queen Creek and others. You will find these to be newer, clean, safe, with great schools and generally beautiful in appearance.
7. Even though Phoenix is a bigger place, the traffic is not as bad as comparable metropolitan areas due to low population density, very good roads and highway infrastructure and particularly a loop system (202, 101, 303 etc.) There are jams in some places and at some points during the day, but if you compare to places like Vegas or Southern California you will find that moving around the Valley (i.e. Phoenix area) is much easier and as a result enjoyable. Plus unlike in most other places, freeways are actually pretty with great landscaping, stone decorations and mountain views all around.
8. The weather is kind of the same. It's about 9 months of spring/summer and 3 months of very hot summer. Vegas can get chilly winters, while Phoenix is about 70 degrees, so nicer. Vegas is a drier and if you have allergies it may be a problem. You will find that many people exaggerate about the impact of hot weather. I lived in Chicago and I like summers here in Phoenix better because there's no oppressive humidity and there's much less insects. Everywhere you go is massively cooled. So much that going to the car and back really feels good. In the early morning it's quite nice (70-80F) and typically around 4-6PM the heat feels good as the sun sets down. The rest of the day in the summer is hot and during the Monsoon season (typically mid-July to maybe mid-to-end August) is humid, with humidity at about 30-35%. Yes it gets hot during the summer, but unless you like to jog in the middle of the day in the summer, you will be just fine. There are many shops and restaurants to go to. Many athletic clubs - in fact some very nice ones for a reasonable price. Quite a few very nice malls such as Chandler and Scottsdale malls. In the summer the temperatures will be around 105-110 typically, and that sounds like a lot. However due to low humidity you will breathe easy, and in 100F you won't even break a sweat (I know it's hard to imagine, but 100F here isn't that bad at all). One thing most people don't know is that it doesn't cool off at night in the summer, it's still in the 90s, takes a bit to get used to, but then it just is what it is. Typically you won't burn here as much because there is a fine layer of dust up in the atmosphere that blocks some of the UV. Still, summers are hot - that is true for both Phoenix and Vegas. Finally, if you want to choose between sun and the snow as your "weather" season, I'd say go for the sun - it's less depressing and you don't have to shovel sunshine!
9. Housing. This is the best part. Nowhere in the country will you find nicer newer neighborhoods at a price like here. In Gilbert, you can get a brand new 2100 sqft house for 330K, in a neighborhood like Recker Point, which is in the middle of all the shops and restaurants and next to Gilbert San Tan mall. You can find nice used house for under 300K. In San Tan Valley, you can get a new 3000 sqft house for 300K! Vegas is more expensive. Also, property taxes are quite low, typically around 0.8%. And Arizona has the equivalent of "Prop 13" in California, which caps the property tax increases to a maximum of 5% a year- in many states you will be paying much more in taxes! In Nevada, there are no limits, and that could be problematic in the future. True, Nevada doesn't have income tax, but it's pretty low in Arizona too.
10. You will find that food is good. Because real estate is cheap, there are many shops and restaurants and many people from all over the world who set up shop here. In Mesa you can find just about any ethnic food you may like. In Gilbert and Scottsdale there are many local chains such as SomeBurros, NYPD Pizza, Salad and Go, Thai Spice etc. that are only local here. There's no better coffee than in Olive Mill in Queen Creek (the coffee shop there is actually mom and pop shop run by people from Seattle!). There's an Asian food mecca around Dobson Rd in Chandler. And as for groceries, there is everything from Winco and Walmart to Whole Foods and Trader Joes.
11. About diversity - this is specific to your own family: you will find that great many people from Illinois have come here, many of them African-American. There is also an ever growing Asian population, I would say in Gilbert they are easily 10% of the population now. We have seen Gilbert transform from the "hay capital of the world" to a truly metropolitan area, in the best possible way.
12. Subjective stuff: I think there's no sky like the Arizona sky and the plant life here is in colors you didn't think possible in Nature - bright cheery colors that look painted. Literally something is blooming all year long! And you haven't seen anything until you've seen the sunrise over Arizona desert!
Overall, the only thing that might give you pause is the hot summers because it's unique. However, most people will adapt and like us, won't give it much thought after a while. We go to Prescott or Flagstaff in the summer when we need a cool off. Prescott Valley is only 2 hours away and the road to there is 4 lanes with a divider (i.e. not a windy mountain road), the same for going to Flagstaff, and the hotel prices are reasonable. Typically it will be 20-30F cooler in those places. And if you like snow, you can have plenty of it in Flagstaff.
We used to live in Chicago IL, Olympia WA, Hillsboro OR, San Francisco CA, Irvine CA, Henderson NV, Rio Rancho NM. For the weather, the best place is SF. For everything else, we found Gilbert AZ to be the best. All of these places had their pluses and minuses. It's really hard to pin it down "in general". I tried to explain what is that we like about Arizona. As always, do your own research and visit places you're considering!
One correction, Nevada property taxes are capped at 3% for SFR's.
Thanks. I agree about the water. Phoenix area is basically sitting on a huge aquifer - essentially a sea of potable water. It's strange that a desert city doesn't have a water problem, and California for example, does. The reason lies in the geography of the region as well as its history. The huge reservoir of water underneath the Valley is due to the glaciers from the last Ice Age which were melting at the edge of what's today Flagstaff - countless years of water melting filled out the aquifer. And because the Valley is an actual valley, all the water we get when it rains (typically 8-12 inches a year depending on the location) goes down to replenish the reserves - unlike for example in California, where most of rainwater ends up in the ocean.
Vegas does have a water problem and that can be a problem. One more reason to steer towards Phoenix (in addition to being free of natural disasters such as earthquakes, tornadoes and such, since we're talking about Mother Nature here...).
It's people like you that come on here and say we don't have a water problem, and waste water like it's an infinite resource when it's clearly not. Read up on the current Colorado water pact that the lower basin states are drawing up as we speak.
Arizona is the last state to get its act together to draw up plans to draw less water from the Colorado river. This WILL affect the valley. Yes we have aquifers here, but we do get some water from the river as well. Yes the valley of the Sun does indeed have a water problem, maybe not as extreme as Las Vegas. But they do a much better job conserving water than we do here.
Arizona is the last state to get its act together to draw up plans to draw less water from the Colorado river. This WILL affect the valley. Yes we have aquifers here, but we do get some water from the river as well. Yes the valley of the Sun does indeed have a water problem, maybe not as extreme as Las Vegas. But they do a much better job conserving water than we do here.
Bravo
I've been following this story on NPR lately. Indeed Arizona is dragging its feet compared to the other surrounding states.
OK, are you suggesting that is not so in Las Vegas? There are Vegas residents from all over the world living there. Most are transplants, just like in Phoenix.
Traffic in Las Vegas has a smooth flow and is easy to guide through. Freeways are hardly ever backed up. Project Neon expansion is now complete and traffic isn't any worse than Phoenix is.
Las Vegas doesn't have any of those natural disasters either. Yes, they have a looming water supply issue, but that's about it for natural disasters (drought). Occasional flooding as does Phoenix.
I like the Phoenix area a lot and am actually considering a move there. I agree with a lot of your points but I had to point out a few that are inaccurate.
The only reason I hesitate moving to Phoenix is I'd take a $10/hr wage decrease...so I am trying to weigh whether that is worth it or not. Cost of living calculators indicate Phoenix is about 6% lower overall than Las Vegas, with apartment rent prices being nearly equal.
Hi, those comments weren't meant to diminish Vegas, as some were comparative and some simply facts that do not imply anything beyond their meaning, and as you pointed out, some things are more or less equal.
As for your deliberation about job and cost of living, I'd suggest checking out different suburbs because the cost of living (especially housing) varies dramatically and you could be saving less than 6% or considerably more than that. For instance suburbs of Gilbert, Queen Creek, San Tan on the south east or Buckeye or Surprise on the west side may offer better than 6% savings, and commuting is better than most places (again, nothing comparative to Vegas, just a fact in general).
Hi, those comments weren't meant to diminish Vegas, as some were comparative and some simply facts that do not imply anything beyond their meaning, and as you pointed out, some things are more or less equal.
As for your deliberation about job and cost of living, I'd suggest checking out different suburbs because the cost of living (especially housing) varies dramatically and you could be saving less than 6% or considerably more than that. For instance suburbs of Gilbert, Queen Creek, San Tan on the south east or Buckeye or Surprise on the west side may offer better than 6% savings, and commuting is better than most places (again, nothing comparative to Vegas, just a fact in general).
It is nice to advocate for a place you like and live in. But stick to the truth. Better in the end.
With respect to climate it is buyer's choice. In the winter Phoenix is clearly superior running 5 or 6 degrees warmer on average. You can see it in the vegetation...Ficus Benjamin can be grown outside in Phoenix as in LA. Virtually certain to get killed within 10 years in Las Vegas.
Come summer the equation turns around. It is not the high temperatures which are actually similar...it is the heat index. Phoenix is often 10 degrees worse in the high summer. It has simply developed too wet an environment for the temperatures and also gets hits much worse by southern moisture.
So on balance Phoenix if you want a warm winter. Las Vegas if you want a livable summer.
Water also tends to weigh against Phoenix. If water gets more difficult It is AZ that takes the hit. Las Vegas is a relatively low user who was not treated reasonably in the original compact. And Las Vegas has one of the most obvious advantages known. It draws its water from above the Hoover dam. As opposed to AZ and CA who draw below it. Guess who gets water when it cannot get past the dam?
As to traffic you are simply kidding or lying. There is no way that Phoenix or southern CA is remotely competitive. Simply a different environment. We live in one corner of Las Vegas and can get diagonally across town (35 miles) in less than 40 minutes.
There is a place where Phoenix is clearly superior. Techies should head to Phoenix not Las Vegas. Simply no structure in LV to support a tech. If you come there on a job you will mostly likely have to leave when it is done. In Phoenix you can likely hit again elsewhere in town.
However when the techie gets ready to retire - back to Vegas.
I've been following this story on NPR lately. Indeed Arizona is dragging its feet compared to the other surrounding states.
The water issue is highly political. About 40% of water consumption in AZ comes from local aquifers (in contrast California pumps about 60% of its water). Arizona has been using Colorado river to replenish its own aquifers for the most part in recent years, the one below Phoenix growing at a rate of about 60 feet per 20 years (from SRP web site, "SRP" is "Salt River Project" utility, one of the main utility companies in the area, the other big one being ASP). In other places, the levels have dropped 20 feet. No one really knows how much water is below us - the estimates range between 100 and 400 years.
The current law in AZ requires new development to prove a 100-year water supply, so that's a minimum at this point.
Because other states that use Colorado river don't have aquifers that are bound by a Valley (i.e. the water doesn't flow away), their situation is a bit dicier.
But the fact is that everywhere, including AZ, there's a wasteful approach to using water. I'd say California is the worst offender, despite the laws and the noise about preserving water. California hasn't built virtually any water reservoirs since the '70s. Practically all rain water is dumped into the ocean, and the state relies on the ground water, snow pack, Colorado river, and some water systems in northern California.
In Arizona, the water conservation has always been more prominent because this is a desert. Most of California is a desert too, but people there never really accepted that fact, possibly because the 20th century was the wettest on record, and normally California (over the past 2000 years) used to get a lot less water.
Arizona has adopted desert landscape for the most part, but recently some new neighborhoods (say Morrison Ranch in Gilbert) have gone all out on green grass. I personally think this is the influence of great many people who come from other places where grass is just a fact of life - not so much here. Here we have saguaros, yaccas, ocotillos and other plant life. Not to say the grass doesn't look pretty, but too much water is used to make it happen. True, some of that water goes back down to aquifers, but some evaporates and it's just gone. And not to mention golf courses, of which there are many here, but even more in Vegas and California.
The positive trend is that more and more water processing plants divert the processed waste water directly back into the ground water supply. Another positive trend is there's less and less agriculture around here (due to urban development) - the agriculture is one of the main users of ground water and it's really not necessary to make foodstuffs here - I can see the temptation thought - the Sun makes it grow really fast.
Perhaps the biggest problem is that accounting for water in all the states along Colorado river is mired in legislative dichotomies, such as not allowing exact account of underground water in virtually all municipalities in order to allow industries to grow (i.e. separating the groundwater books from other sources).
In the end, if I were to try and be a water prophet (an ungrateful task), I'd say one of the following will happen. One possibility is that all southwest states will join resources and start desalinizing water and pumping it everywhere. That will be costly but will solve the issue for a very long time. Another possibility is that ground resources are greater than estimated - a fair possibility given that most no one is allowed to estimate (however some estimates predating the laws were quite impressive especially for the Phoenix area) - but this will only work if all water processing diverts water back to aquifers (which is happening slowly but surely at least in Phoenix) and if we cut back on grass and agriculture (which will happen once there's political will). There is also a possibility that some areas will become wetter (while others may become drier) - but even talking about this will draw the ire of various groups who have different views of climate and what it will be (for better or worse), so I am not even going there.
Overall, I'd say that all SouthWest states have a water issue to various degrees, the worst being NV and CA, followed by AZ. Ultimately, we may all go the Singapore route and process the sewer water back to supply. Or not.
In short, the issue is complex and laced with greed, stupidity and political battles but ultimately solvable. As they say, the government will do the right thing once there are no other viable choices.
It is nice to advocate for a place you like and live in. But stick to the truth. Better in the end.
With respect to climate it is buyer's choice. In the winter Phoenix is clearly superior running 5 or 6 degrees warmer on average. You can see it in the vegetation...Ficus Benjamin can be grown outside in Phoenix as in LA. Virtually certain to get killed within 10 years in Las Vegas.
Come summer the equation turns around. It is not the high temperatures which are actually similar...it is the heat index. Phoenix is often 10 degrees worse in the high summer. It has simply developed too wet an environment for the temperatures and also gets hits much worse by southern moisture.
So on balance Phoenix if you want a warm winter. Las Vegas if you want a livable summer.
Water also tends to weigh against Phoenix. If water gets more difficult It is AZ that takes the hit. Las Vegas is a relatively low user who was not treated reasonably in the original compact. And Las Vegas has one of the most obvious advantages known. It draws its water from above the Hoover dam. As opposed to AZ and CA who draw below it. Guess who gets water when it cannot get past the dam?
As to traffic you are simply kidding or lying. There is no way that Phoenix or southern CA is remotely competitive. Simply a different environment. We live in one corner of Las Vegas and can get diagonally across town (35 miles) in less than 40 minutes.
There is a place where Phoenix is clearly superior. Techies should head to Phoenix not Las Vegas. Simply no structure in LV to support a tech. If you come there on a job you will mostly likely have to leave when it is done. In Phoenix you can likely hit again elsewhere in town.
However when the techie gets ready to retire - back to Vegas.
It's true that summer in Vegas is drier than Phoenix, but both summers are hot. Hot is hot, and it's what it is. The only summer in SW where you can go out during the day (and say jog for an hour) is in parts of California (coastal areas, the north and around wine country Temecula), and that's what gyms are for. So having lived in both, I'd say the summer in Vegas and Phoenix are about the same compared to a "normal" summer the most people envision. I would say that Phoenix and Vegas are better than most of Texas, where it's hot AND super humid.
As for water situation, Phoenix is in a better position. It gets twice the rain and has underground water. True, Vegas gets the dibs on Colorado river but that's a very hard bet (pun not intended) to make in case the river gets dry upstream. Vegas is the only major city that completely depends on Colorado river. And the upstream states that feed Colorado river (such as Utah or Wyoming) are planning the dams to control the flow of rivers that feed Colorado river. Vegas may try to "upstream" other states, but it may find itself "upstreamed" by others.
Water aside (the problem which will be solved once there's political will), my main worry about Vegas is the viability in terms of industry. It relies too much on tourism from elsewhere, and in case of another great recession (or depression), it may diminish in size. It grew rapidly against the backdrop of huge credit expansion since the '70s allowing families nationwide to hop on a plane and stay in hotels and have fun. If there's a change in this regard (a distinct possibility), it spells trouble.
I also worry about nuclear testing north of it - in the past the city would get radiation clouds from it. In the '60s, some Vegas hotels offered views of mushroom clouds from nuclear testing up north. While that's not going on now, you never know if history might repeat itself, since those testing grounds are still actively used.
As for traffic, I'd say it's somewhat better in Phoenix. Arizona invests more money in the loop system of highways - recently 303 was completed and a new SouthMountain branch of 202 is being worked on. It's the SoCal that makes it virtually impossible to go anywhere beyond your 5 miles radius most of the day due to heavy traffic.
The water issue is highly political. About 40% of water consumption in AZ comes from local aquifers (in contrast California pumps about 60% of its water). Arizona has been using Colorado river to replenish its own aquifers for the most part in recent years, the one below Phoenix growing at a rate of about 60 feet per 20 years (from SRP web site, "SRP" is "Salt River Project" utility, one of the main utility companies in the area, the other big one being ASP). In other places, the levels have dropped 20 feet. No one really knows how much water is below us - the estimates range between 100 and 400 years.
The current law in AZ requires new development to prove a 100-year water supply, so that's a minimum at this point.
Because other states that use Colorado river don't have aquifers that are bound by a Valley (i.e. the water doesn't flow away), their situation is a bit dicier.
But the fact is that everywhere, including AZ, there's a wasteful approach to using water. I'd say California is the worst offender, despite the laws and the noise about preserving water. California hasn't built virtually any water reservoirs since the '70s. Practically all rain water is dumped into the ocean, and the state relies on the ground water, snow pack, Colorado river, and some water systems in northern California.
In Arizona, the water conservation has always been more prominent because this is a desert. Most of California is a desert too, but people there never really accepted that fact, possibly because the 20th century was the wettest on record, and normally California (over the past 2000 years) used to get a lot less water.
Arizona has adopted desert landscape for the most part, but recently some new neighborhoods (say Morrison Ranch in Gilbert) have gone all out on green grass. I personally think this is the influence of great many people who come from other places where grass is just a fact of life - not so much here. Here we have saguaros, yaccas, ocotillos and other plant life. Not to say the grass doesn't look pretty, but too much water is used to make it happen. True, some of that water goes back down to aquifers, but some evaporates and it's just gone. And not to mention golf courses, of which there are many here, but even more in Vegas and California.
The positive trend is that more and more water processing plants divert the processed waste water directly back into the ground water supply. Another positive trend is there's less and less agriculture around here (due to urban development) - the agriculture is one of the main users of ground water and it's really not necessary to make foodstuffs here - I can see the temptation thought - the Sun makes it grow really fast.
Perhaps the biggest problem is that accounting for water in all the states along Colorado river is mired in legislative dichotomies, such as not allowing exact account of underground water in virtually all municipalities in order to allow industries to grow (i.e. separating the groundwater books from other sources).
In the end, if I were to try and be a water prophet (an ungrateful task), I'd say one of the following will happen. One possibility is that all southwest states will join resources and start desalinizing water and pumping it everywhere. That will be costly but will solve the issue for a very long time. Another possibility is that ground resources are greater than estimated - a fair possibility given that most no one is allowed to estimate (however some estimates predating the laws were quite impressive especially for the Phoenix area) - but this will only work if all water processing diverts water back to aquifers (which is happening slowly but surely at least in Phoenix) and if we cut back on grass and agriculture (which will happen once there's political will). There is also a possibility that some areas will become wetter (while others may become drier) - but even talking about this will draw the ire of various groups who have different views of climate and what it will be (for better or worse), so I am not even going there.
Overall, I'd say that all SouthWest states have a water issue to various degrees, the worst being NV and CA, followed by AZ. Ultimately, we may all go the Singapore route and process the sewer water back to supply. Or not.
In short, the issue is complex and laced with greed, stupidity and political battles but ultimately solvable. As they say, the government will do the right thing once there are no other viable choices.
In the end we will build desalinators in California and Mexico and pipe water in, it will make water costs much higher but it will solve the problem
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