Golf course communities -- a concern to consider. (Phoenix, Peoria: sales, houses)

[Ponderosa]

Dead golf courses is already been going on here for a while. Like anything older in Phoenix, they are not desirable anymore and go into decay or the homeowners get stuck with soaring fees to maintain them. Some have .been converted to condos and more homes. So much for the view.

[grmi66]

This is playing out down here in Tucson. One of the suburbs bought a golf course off of the local resort and turned it into a community golf course. Half the town wants to shut it down and voted in a new mayor & city council to do so. But the other half of the town is up in arms about losing a golf course and their course views. Some very nasty back and forth going on in the local newspaper and on Nextdoor.

[Burkmere]

Originally Posted by thinkalot

You used a 4 1/2 year old story?

Just about all of the golf numbers are up. First time male and female golfers, youth golfers, equipment sales, minority golfers. 65+ golf is way up and will continue as boomers continue to retire.

Junior girls golf has more than doubled and minority girls are up from 6% to 25% of the total.

5 straight years of 2M+ new golfers.

Largest customer segment is 18 to 34 so don't try to pull the millennials don't golf line.

Female golfers are now 36% of the golfing population.

Sure there are more courses closing and that will continue. Youngstown Ohio for example was a big golfing area but their population dropped from 190,000 to 60,000 and there are many other dying areas like that. I am sure they aren't opening courses in Detroit.

Rounds played did drop last year, the third wettest year on record.

All numbers are from the National Golf Foundation. Keeping track of the game is what they do (the good and the bad) unlike a reporter working on A story.

I live in a golf community. We have 8 courses. There are always a few that talk about a park or some other thing THAT WON'T BRING IN ANY MONEY and would still have to be maintained.

You are right that people should check before buying into a golf community but please use current and accurate numbers. Don't use news stories from times when the economy wasn't doing that great or anecdotal examples from one place. I could do the same with places that are hard to get a Tee Time.

I hope you are wrong. Having zillions of golf courses for recreation is a terrible waste of land in my opinion. I hope the trend of lesser golfers continues or begins and many of the golf courses are converted into something else. There are many other ways to recreate that don't involve the use of huge tracts of and simply because one likes to hit a small ball with a long stick. My opinion of course.

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

I think PHX area is in better shape than most states. Revenue growth has been flat for 5 years https://www.azcentral.com/story/mone...ry/1083164001/ .

The big issue was that too many courses were being built specifically for new housing developments. I know Verrado and the new Victory 55+ course are suffering. But the owners (DMB) have deeeeeeeeeeeeep pockets (think billions). Still as Mike posted, that should make people think twice from buying on a struggling course. Long term, a new course has to make it on it's own.

In AZ, new course builds have settled down some. But as a whole, gold (measured in billions in AZ) is still profitable. My guess is course closures here in PHX will be less than average. If it does happen, the developer will get a haircut and lose millions. The question is will the next buyer (who got a lot better deal) be able to make it work??

[MN-Born-n-Raised]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

I live in a gated 55+ community. Great landscaping, lovely place, with many amenities, one of which is a golf course with clubhouse and eatery.

I golf once a year. But I will be buying my next house on a course for one reason: beauty. And probably in a 55+ location. Mike, can you share your development name?

[Hal Roach]

Got a match?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/featu...es-are-burning.

[Hal Roach]

Here is a view of the clubhouse (demolished), lake (drained), and 10th hole at el caro, n 21st Dr., 85021.

[Mike from back east]

Originally Posted by Potential_Landlord

Trebbles? Trebbles!!!

Here's the link.

Not an issue here in AZ but it was back in El Paso County, COLO where we lived. There may be a species of some sort here that is on the list for protection and if so it might have an impact on what can be done with defunct golf courses or with land in general.

[freestoneangler]

Originally Posted by thinkalot

You used a 4 1/2 year old story?

Just about all of the golf numbers are up. First time male and female golfers, youth golfers, equipment sales, minority golfers. 65+ golf is way up and will continue as boomers continue to retire.

Junior girls golf has more than doubled and minority girls are up from 6% to 25% of the total.

5 straight years of 2M+ new golfers.

Largest customer segment is 18 to 34 so don't try to pull the millennials don't golf line.

Female golfers are now 36% of the golfing population.

Sure there are more courses closing and that will continue. Youngstown Ohio for example was a big golfing area but their population dropped from 190,000 to 60,000 and there are many other dying areas like that. I am sure they aren't opening courses in Detroit.

Rounds played did drop last year, the third wettest year on record.

All numbers are from the National Golf Foundation. Keeping track of the game is what they do (the good and the bad) unlike a reporter working on A story.

I live in a golf community. We have 8 courses. There are always a few that talk about a park or some other thing THAT WON'T BRING IN ANY MONEY and would still have to be maintained.

You are right that people should check before buying into a golf community but please use current and accurate numbers. Don't use news stories from times when the economy wasn't doing that great or anecdotal examples from one place. I could do the same with places that are hard to get a Tee Time.

As someone who is considering a home purchase in SCG, this question/discussion has certainly crossed my mind. To the OP's point, it is certainly worthy of some serious consideration.

This whole "golf is dying", "golf is growing" discussion has been hard to get a read on. I've read some conflicting data and articles on the subject. My observations are that the sport is still very much alive - particularly as it pertains to the amount of play. It does seem that fewer younger folks are picking up the game but, in addition to the Boomers (the backend of that population just coming into retirement), the Tiger Wood's effect on the subsequent generations still leaves a very healthy number of players - now and into the near future.

I think the argument could be made that golf course communities such as the Del Webb's are even more likely to survive and prosper with their existing courses. Looking forward a couple of decades, I would agree this may not continue to be the case. Undoubtedly the costs of managing and maintaining courses gets more challenging (not just accounting for inflation), and this is likely why many municipal courses are closing or being sold to private holdings. In the case of a well run Del Webb (or similar) HOA, whose residents largely purchased their homes for the golf courses, I think they are less likely to fail anytime soon.

[wit-nit]

Come to Sun City Nov-May and the golf courses are jammed up with carts waiting (up to 3 hrs at times) to get on the courses. No shortage of golfers here. Most are from snowbird country.