Sheriff Joe (Phoenix, Ajo, Maricopa: gated, hotel, rent)

[shadow91]

I use to live in a small community in IL. Our sheriff was the worst as well as the State's attorney. Drugs running rampant, crime galore, I always said, why can't our sheriff be like the Phoenix sheriff? You don't know how well you have it until you visit other counties.

[normab00]

I can't believe what I am reading on these posts! There are so many people willing to put down this Sheriff who punishes civilians who break the law. That is his job, and he is one of few who actually does it right! Most of you are complaining about unjust treatment of these prisoners, but has it not occurred to you that they broke the law? They deserve punishment! And yes, even if they "just" got a DUI, they broke the law! (And by the way, drunk drivers kill millions annually so I don't think that's a small crime!) He does nothing inhumane!

Another person posted that they believe if just because you can't make the bail you shouldn't have to suffer humiliation while waiting for your court date. That is ridiculus! First off, they don't suffer humiliation they suffer hard work. Secondly, in order to get arrested you have to break the law, which means that the person deserves the consequences. The point of jails and prisons is to teach criminals a lesson so they don't repeat the same actions. If we give them cable TV, tobacco, the best food in town, a nice place to stay, a job, and plenty of free time, who would dread going back? That just shows that breaking the law is not that bad!!

The last thing I have is for the people who believe that prisoners are treated so inhumanely because they have to sleep in tents and work outside at temperatures of up to 110 degrees fahrenheit. What do you think the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing right now as you are reading this? They are there protecting your freedom. They work in conditions worse than this every day that they are there, and they didn't break the law or do anything stupid to deserve that. They can handle it and they handle it of their own free will. They all survive it and I think the prisoners will survive as well. It is not inhumane, it is making a point.

[heaton]

More people have been killed by illegals last year then in Iraq.

[irwin]

Originally Posted by normab00

I can't believe what I am reading on these posts! There are so many people willing to put down this Sheriff who punishes civilians who break the law. That is his job, and he is one of few who actually does it right! Most of you are complaining about unjust treatment of these prisoners, but has it not occurred to you that they broke the law? They deserve punishment! And yes, even if they "just" got a DUI, they broke the law! (And by the way, drunk drivers kill millions annually so I don't think that's a small crime!) He does nothing inhumane!

Well, as some noted (including myself) many of the people Ole Joe's custody have not been found guilty and therefore are not "criminals" and have not broke the law. More about that later. But, regardless, his tactics and treatment are unnecessary and immoral. Some of the people may have "broke the law" but they are still human beings. Ole Joe's tactics and glam-handing is about one thing - building up his image and boasting his already over inflated ego. The crime rate has been increasing, not decreasing here in Phoenix. So, I will continue to criticize the barbaric treatment Ole Joe hands out in his facilities.

Originally Posted by normab00

Another person posted that they believe if just because you can't make the bail you shouldn't have to suffer humiliation while waiting for your court date. That is ridiculus! First off, they don't suffer humiliation they suffer hard work.

Prison labor = slave labor....all the same.
We rightly criticize backward countries like China and Iran who partake in such tactics. Ole Joe does the same thing.

Originally Posted by normab00

Secondly, in order to get arrested you have to break the law, which means that the person deserves the consequences.

Yea...innocent people never get arrested.
We have a criminal court system here to decide the guilt or innocence of persons accused of a crime. This is not the USSR or Iraq!

Originally Posted by normab00

The point of jails and prisons is to teach criminals a lesson so they don't repeat the same actions. If we give them cable TV, tobacco, the best food in town, a nice place to stay, a job, and plenty of free time, who would dread going back? That just shows that breaking the law is not that bad!!

Well, I think we could have an entire debate about the point of jails. But, even assuming that "teaching a lesson" is the point, obviously Ole Joe's tactics are not working because the crime rate has been increasing! Other states (and other countries) that don't employ the same barbaric tactics have a lower crime rate. That is the facts.

Originally Posted by normab00

The last thing I have is for the people who believe that prisoners are treated so inhumanely because they have to sleep in tents and work outside at temperatures of up to 110 degrees fahrenheit. What do you think the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are doing right now as you are reading this? They are there protecting your freedom. They work in conditions worse than this every day that they are there, and they didn't break the law or do anything stupid to deserve that. They can handle it and they handle it of their own free will. They all survive it and I think the prisoners will survive as well. It is not inhumane, it is making a point.

Well, first I would simply say that our soldiers shouldn't be in Iraq, but that is a whole different story. But, forgetting that for a moment, they deal with it simply because they have to. Ole Joe subjects people in his facilities to such tactics because they save costs (more $$) and it give Ole Joe the ability to feed his ego through media attention. It is unnecessary and simply another action by this demented media wh*re. And, I will repeat again, it is not working!

[adelmo]

Originally Posted by Lorann

I just wanted to state that I agree entirely w/ what Irwin has said. Ole' Joe is a media wh*re. He's an idiot.

I cant believe what this thread has become. There are so many hard working law enforcment people risking their lives in all of Arizona and the U.S. for that matter. They risk their lives for you. Moderator cut: personal remarks Let's do something about it.

[irwin]

Originally Posted by adelmo

I cant believe what this thread has become.

I can't believe what has become of the Sheriff's Department here.

Originally Posted by adelmo

There are so many hard working law enforcment people risking their lives in all of Arizona and the U.S. for that matter. They risk their lives for you. Moderator cut: personal remarks Let's do something about it.

I agree that there are many hard working people in law enforcement and most of them are good, decent people. But, there are also some problems - Ole Joe is one of those problems.

[heaton]

More people have been killed by illegals in the US last year then in the war and 700,000 illegal crossed into the US last year. We need more then just Sheriff Joe.

[aj661]

Not sure where to start with this. There's been a lot of ranting and raving on this thread concerning Sheriff Arpaio, his jails, the crime in Phoenix... I wasn't going to comment but a few statements bother me. I have a few opinions on the subjects, but mostly it is some of the "facts" I feel need to be addressed.

Sheriff Arpaio has a very polarizing personality. Most people either love him or hate him. He's been called some pretty nasty names here. What he is is a politician, one with a big ego. And like most politicians, he enjoys the camera.

Blaming Arpaio for the crime in Phoenix is wrong. He is the Sheriff of Maricopa County. His law enforcement responsibility is the unincorporated areas of Maricopa County, not the city of Phoenix. If you want to blast a law enforcement official for crime in Phoenix, his name is Jack Harris. He's the Chief of Police.

Work details or "chain gangs" if you prefer, are nothing like Iraq or China. The details are not "slave labor". Every county prisoner working one of these details is a volunteer. There is no forced labor.

A reference was made to the Scott Norberg case and the 8mil settlement. The insurance company settled and paid. Arpaio would have preferred it go to trial. The fact is that the case was investigated by the DOJ and the FBI. All of the detention officers were exonerated. If anyone one believes that was a cover-up or a conspiracy, so be it. I doubt I can change your mind.

People are not arrested based on a police officer's opinion. They are arrested based on probable cause (PC), the definition being, "that amount of knowledge that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed and the person to be arrested committed that crime." Every booking sheet requires a statement of PC. At the arrested person's initial appearance (IA), if the judge disagrees or the PC is not clearly stated, the person is released. This occurs within 24 hours of arrest.

To think that "innocent until proven guilty" means we as a society have no right to incarcerate someone until they are convicted is altruistic and dangerously flawed. Example: the 'citizen' who murdered the young Glendale Police Officer last week has not been convicted of anything. His legal status is "innocent". Do you really believe he should be set free until he is convicted?

Finally, the crime in Phoenix. Yes it's on the rise. So is the population. The bad guys are just as attracted to our great weather as everyone else.

[mhouse2001]

I agree that Joe Arpaio is a disgrace to law enforcement as it appears he fudges the line between right and wrong to suit his ego. This is unacceptable behavior for any publicly elected official (it's also unacceptable for any private citizen, but we have no real say in those circumstances).

What I find most troubling is the responders on this forum who overlook these crimes while supporting his other (assumed legal and proper) activities. Do we not hold public officials to scrutiny anymore? It's OK for a LAW ENFORCEMENT official to BREAK THE LAW and/or INTERPRET the law his own way? Apparently, the answer is yes and draws immediate comparisons to our US Administration and its continued support from those willing to accept unAmerican behavior.

Mistreatment of innocent civilians is wrong in all countries and at all times. Yet, we Americans/Arizonans subject innocent people to humiliating and horrific events and don't care. We think nothing of throwing people in prison as if our fellow man has no value or is entitled to no rights. Our glorious leader and his Administration sends innocent people to foreign countries to be tortured. Our vacuous Attorney General thinks the Constitution doesn't grant us habeus corpus, just the right to NOT have it taken away. I know this strays from the discussion about Joe Arpaio, but I want to place this in context. We are letting criminals and idiots run the asylum while we look the other way, and, in many places, still lend them our support!

It used to be that when an elected official was found to have broken the public's trust, the next course of action was dismissal in shame. Now, our elected officials openly defy the Constitution, claim the power to do so because we've empowered them with their position (how's that for circular logic?) and break laws without regard for the consequences. Why? Because there are no consequences anymore! As long as we look the other way or reject the truth when it's provided, we will end up with more Joe Arpaios and Alberto Gonzalezs and George Bushs.

In short, I see this problem on a larger scale and though there may be no real connection between Sheriff Joe and our national leaders, there is a common thread of corruption, lack of accountability, and complete disregard for the rule of law and common sense. To support these kinds of people will lead to chaos and reduce our country to third world status.

[irwin]

Originally Posted by aj661

Not sure where to start with this. There's been a lot of ranting and raving on this thread concerning Sheriff Arpaio, his jails, the crime in Phoenix... I wasn't going to comment but a few statements bother me. I have a few opinions on the subjects, but mostly it is some of the "facts" I feel need to be addressed.

Sheriff Arpaio has a very polarizing personality. Most people either love him or hate him. He's been called some pretty nasty names here. What he is is a politician, one with a big ego. And like most politicians, he enjoys the camera.

Blaming Arpaio for the crime in Phoenix is wrong. He is the Sheriff of Maricopa County. His law enforcement responsibility is the unincorporated areas of Maricopa County, not the city of Phoenix. If you want to blast a law enforcement official for crime in Phoenix, his name is Jack Harris. He's the Chief of Police.

Work details or "chain gangs" if you prefer, are nothing like Iraq or China. The details are not "slave labor". Every county prisoner working one of these details is a volunteer. There is no forced labor.

A reference was made to the Scott Norberg case and the 8mil settlement. The insurance company settled and paid. Arpaio would have preferred it go to trial. The fact is that the case was investigated by the DOJ and the FBI. All of the detention officers were exonerated. If anyone one believes that was a cover-up or a conspiracy, so be it. I doubt I can change your mind.

People are not arrested based on a police officer's opinion. They are arrested based on probable cause (PC), the definition being, "that amount of knowledge that would lead a reasonable person to believe that a crime has been committed and the person to be arrested committed that crime." Every booking sheet requires a statement of PC. At the arrested person's initial appearance (IA), if the judge disagrees or the PC is not clearly stated, the person is released. This occurs within 24 hours of arrest.

To think that "innocent until proven guilty" means we as a society have no right to incarcerate someone until they are convicted is altruistic and dangerously flawed. Example: the 'citizen' who murdered the young Glendale Police Officer last week has not been convicted of anything. His legal status is "innocent". Do you really believe he should be set free until he is convicted?

Finally, the crime in Phoenix. Yes it's on the rise. So is the population. The bad guys are just as attracted to our great weather as everyone else.

Couple of things.

First, I don't blame all the crime on Ole Joe. But, he certainly is not helping. He has a lot of discretion on how he treats people within his custody and he defends his barbaric treatment on the terms of being "tough on crime" as if it actually reduces the crime rate. Clearly, it does not. Not only are the number of crimes increasing here, but the crime rate (i.e. adjusted for population) is increasing.

Second, the chain gangs and other groups are voluntary, at least in name. But, if you don't volunteer, you can expect worse treatment under Old Joe. China and Iran would claim their work detail in prisons in similar terms. I have a friend who is a criminal attorney here in the Valley and he has told me the barbaric conditions that exist in Ole Joe's jails.

Third, the Norberg case and others have been condemned by independent groups such as Amnesty International and other countries refuse to extradite anyone to Maricopa County because of the actions of Ole Joe. I certainly do not trust this Justice Department to make judgment calls given their tract record. And everyone knows that one law enforcement organization is not going to out another; they are not going to cross the blue line.

Finally, reasonable cause is the most lax legal standard available. I know something about legal standards. It is essentially the opinion of the officer, as long as his belief is not completely illogical. He can make assumptions (sometimes rather tenuous assumptions) and the officer is given WIDE latitude. So, once you are detained, you are subjected to these barbaric conditions under Ole Joe's control. If you happen to be poor and you can't afford bail, you are stuck there, under the control of this guy. Simply unacceptable.

He is an embarrassment, clear and simple and his tactics are not working. So, I can only assume that the only reason he is continuing with these shameful actions is because it gives him the ability to boast his ego on places like Fox News or he is a sadist.

If he wants respect and wants to be treated like a professional, he needs to start acting like one.