Does anyone approve of the light-rail? (Phoenix, Tucson: environment, highrise, budget)

[_Charles_]

I personally doubt that I will ever use the light rail as I have no need but I did vote for it and I am glad to see it in service. Anything that reduces car dependancy in the metro area benefits all of us.

I have seen past transportation intiatives fail. I was happy to see this pass and get completeld.

[uconn99]

I do think the one missed opportunity was bypassing the airport.

This is in the works. The station at 44th/Washington will have a people mover that runs to all airport terminals.


As for commuter rail, it will happen eventually. The tracks are owned by the fright companies and are actually close to capacity as it is. A new rail would have to be added for commuter service.

Phoenix and Tucson need to be connected. A high Speed train between Phoenix and Tucson would tie the 2 cities together. Stops in Phoenix, Tempe, Chandler, Casa Grande, Marana and Tucson would do wonders for the region. Imagine being able to get to Tucson in 1 hour 25 minutes or less. You could actually commute both ways for work.

[joninaz]

It's a $2 Billion solution that might benefit 2% of the metro area, assuming they all want to take the same transport type and travel the same routes. And that's out of the 2%.

Otherwise, it's pretty typical of the patchwork, appease all mentality of the amateur local/regional govts. who all want the latest toys, rather than develop something that will outlive them.

I know we have a lot of rail lovers on here, but I can slew them with my examples of why it's not the best use of funds in this market.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by joninaz

It's a $2 Billion solution that might benefit 2% of the metro area, assuming they all want to take the same transport type and travel the same routes. And that's out of the 2%.

Otherwise, it's pretty typical of the patchwork, appease all mentality of the amateur local/regional govts. who all want the latest toys, rather than develop something that will outlive them.

I know we have a lot of rail lovers on here, but I can slew them with my examples of why it's not the best use of funds in this market.

Why don't you entertain us then? Love to hear them.

[uconn99]

That is the type of thinking that is holding Phoenix back from every becoming a major city. Phoenix should have miles and miles of heavy and light rail by now. For a city this size it is pathetic.

Lets keep building freeways and have more congestion. Oh, wait, the ADOT doesn't have any more money for freeways, hardly enough for maintenance now.

[miamiman]

I'm for light rail, though I do have some concerns about it. There have already been issues with segments of the rails buckling due to our extreme heat. There is no other city in the United States that deals with the intensity of both heat and sunlight as Phoenix. I am not completely convinced that engineers have done everything they can to ensure that the rails can withstand our summer heat. One accident and ridership or potential ridership will plummet.

Next, I am worried that ridership will not reach forecasted levels. The light rail line travels between some of the most dense corridors in the Valley, but I still question who will ride it with any regularity. The dominant work-trip pattern in the Valley is from suburb-to-suburb (most people in the suburbs do NOT work in Phoenix). Those who do work in Phoenix do not necessarily work within walking distance of the light rail.

I know a lot of people want to use Salt Lake City's and Houston's light rail systems as a basis for showing that light rail can work in Sunbelt cities. However, Salt Lake City and Houston both have downtowns that make light rail viable. Salt Lake City's downtown is relatively compact with businesses, office buildings, mixed-use developments, and a convention center within short walking distance. Houston's downtown is pedestrian friendly, has numerous offices and hotels, has a convention center, has 2 stadiums, and numerous performing arts venues. Really, there is no comparison.

There should be more downtown development before light rail is constructed. Light rail shouldn't be constructed in hopes that there will be more development along the corridor. If light rail turns out to not to be a success and there turns out to be little new economic development along the light rail corridor, where do we go from there?

Phoenix is jumping steps to try to catch up to other cities. We are building high-rises before there are tenants and we are building light rail before there is high demand. It will be interesting to say the least what comes of this light rail system.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by miamiman

I'm for light rail, though I do have some concerns about it. There have already been issues with segments of the rails buckling due to our extreme heat. There is no other city in the United States that deals with the intensity of both heat and sunlight as Phoenix. I am not completely convinced that engineers have done everything they can to ensure that the rails can withstand our summer heat. One accident and ridership or potential ridership will plummet.

I'm not aware of any problems related to heat and sun. The much-publicized cracks from earlier this year were cause by improper use of plasma torches by a contractor during the construction process. Those cracks have been fixed.

Originally Posted by miamiman

Next, I am worried that ridership will not reach forecasted levels. The light rail line travels between some of the most dense corridors in the Valley, but I still question who will ride it with any regularity. The dominant work-trip pattern in the Valley is from suburb-to-suburb (most people in the suburbs do NOT work in Phoenix). Those who do work in Phoenix do not necessarily work within walking distance of the light rail.

Just look at any crowded bus on the Red Line and other routes that largely overlap with light rail to see how much demand there is for travel along the corridor covered by the rail line. Take those existing riders and add in discretionary riders that are willing to use rail but unwilling to use a bus, and the numbers will add up.

Originally Posted by miamiman

I know a lot of people want to use Salt Lake City's and Houston's light rail systems as a basis for showing that light rail can work in Sunbelt cities. However, Salt Lake City and Houston both have downtowns that make light rail viable. Salt Lake City's downtown is relatively compact with businesses, office buildings, mixed-use developments, and a convention center within short walking distance. Houston's downtown is pedestrian friendly, has numerous offices and hotels, has a convention center, has 2 stadiums, and numerous performing arts venues. Really, there is no comparison.

No comparison? The descriptions above could both apply to Downtown Phoenix, which is home to a newly expanded convention center, Chase Field, US Airways Center, Herberger Theater, Dodge Theater, Symphony Hall, Orpheum Theater, numerous government and corporate offices, etc. Add in Tempe and Midtown destinations, and it's clear that there are dozens of popular destinations along the light rail starter line.

[HX_Guy]

Originally Posted by miamiman

Houston's downtown is pedestrian friendly, has numerous offices and hotels, has a convention center, has 2 stadiums, and numerous performing arts venues. Really, there is no comparison.

Have you actually been to downtown Phoenix? You could easily replace "Houston" with "Phoenix" in your above statement.

Let's see...

Numerous hotel? Check
Numerous offices? Check
Convention center? Check
Stadiums? Yes, two of them in fact
Performing arts venues? Again, numerous

I'm not familiar with Houston, and maybe they have more retail and residential downtown, which is where Phoenix is lacking...especially the retail, but with the new residential projects coming online, hopefully the retail will follow.

[jd433]

they tried to tell us on commercials before they approved this project. The light rail does not serve enough people and is very slow. It is not effective. We would have been better off putting in more freeways. Thats it thats all I have to say. This was stupid!!!!! How much?? 2.5 billion dollars?? are you serious?? that would have built a lot of freeways. I think the 2020 plan is absolutely stupid!!!

[miamiman]

Originally Posted by silverbear

I'm not aware of any problems related to heat and sun. The much-publicized cracks from earlier this year were cause by improper use of plasma torches by a contractor during the construction process. Those cracks have been fixed.

The cracks worsened due to the high fluctuation in temperature. Who is to say that any cracks that develop won't worsen due to our heat? I am not convinced that cracks won't form with daily temperature of 100 degrees plus temperatures day in and day out.

Originally Posted by silverbear

Just look at any crowded bus on the Red Line and other routes that largely overlap with light rail to see how much demand there is for travel along the corridor covered by the rail line. Take those existing riders and add in discretionary riders that are willing to use rail but unwilling to use a bus, and the numbers will add up.

I don't know how many people ride the Red Line, but I highly doubt that it is enough to make light rail viable. As I have said, the majority of people in the Valley commute from suburb-to-suburb. You are assuming the everyone who rides the Red Line will automatically switch over to light rail and that other who do not ride transit will ride light rail. Ridership forecasts in Sunbelt cities are usually entirely too high. Based off of the very low percentage of Valley residents who commute by public transit, I doubt that ridership forecasts are accurate.

Originally Posted by silverbear

No comparison? The descriptions above could both apply to Downtown Phoenix, which is home to a newly expanded convention center, Chase Field, US Airways Center, Herberger Theater, Dodge Theater, Symphony Hall, Orpheum Theater, numerous government and corporate offices, etc. Add in Tempe and Midtown destinations, and it's clear that there are dozens of popular destinations along the light rail starter line.

As much as I hate Houston, there simply is no comparison at all. Phoenix's downtown is probably about 10% of the size of Houston's, there are no department stores or malls in downtown Phoenix unlike Houston, the theater district in downtown Houston is the largest in the country, there are 7 major hotel chains in downtown Houston and numerous boutique hotels, and there are two college campuses, among other attributes. Let's also not forget that there is more shade and it is about 10-20 degrees cooler on any given summer day in Houston than here in Phoenix.

Salt Lake City has a shopping district downtown known as the Gateway District with 105 stores. Phoenix has nothing comparable. Salt Lake City has a mixed-use complex under construction called Cherry Creek Center in its downtown, including 5 residential towers over 30 floors high. The complex will also provide the city with a downtown Nordstrom's, Saks Fifth Avenue, Dillards, Neiman Marcus and Macy's. Phoenix has nothing comparable planned.

I say this because these are all draws that are responsible for ridership. Until Phoenix has just some of these amenities, light rail will not work.

Comparing Phoenix to Houston and Salt Lake City really doesn't make much sense. Phoenix has a LONG way to go before it can compare to other cities with light rail. I think this will prove to be a major failure and will really give city and transit leaders a good slap in the face. This is not San Diego, LA, Salt Lake City, Denver, Dallas, Houston, Atlanta, or Charlotte. This is Phoenix. We need to look at our own situation and do what we need to do to improve Phoenix. Skipping steps by building a light rail before there is proper demand or building highrise when there are few, if any, tenants expressing interest is going in the wrong direction.