Does anyone approve of the light-rail? (Phoenix, Scottsdale: environment, relocating, budget)

[Huckleberry3911948]

public transport works when people are civil. they are not. the civil rights laws are used to defend the uncivil. middle class wont use public transport til this changes. they will drive cars as much as they can. same as france. the public transport advocates are ignoring our mean streets.
the elephant standing in the living room.

[jfre81]

I'm actually surprised to see this much support for rail in Phoenix.

The best thing about the light rail here in Houston is that I don't have to drive around downtown when it's just fine to walk around, and best of all I don't have to pay to park. The downside here is that there is no grade separation at intersections except where streets went under one another before the rail was built, but this is not an inherent problem with light rail but a problem with how it was put into place here. It was mainly because our rail line was funded 100% locally because the feds didn't think it would succeed. They were wrong, despite its shortcomings. Hopefully the new lines will be done better - one of them will have an underground section.

I have a feeling it'll work in Phoenix too. The whole "we're too spread out, so it'll never work" argument has been disproven time and again in other cities. Then there are the people who won't support it because it won't be in their neighborhood first. It has to start somewhere.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by jfre81

I'm actually surprised to see this much support for rail in Phoenix.

The best thing about the light rail here in Houston is that I don't have to drive around downtown when it's just fine to walk around, and best of all I don't have to pay to park. The downside here is that there is no grade separation at intersections except where streets went under one another before the rail was built, but this is not an inherent problem with light rail but a problem with how it was put into place here. It was mainly because our rail line was funded 100% locally because the feds didn't think it would succeed. They were wrong, despite its shortcomings. Hopefully the new lines will be done better - one of them will have an underground section.

I have a feeling it'll work in Phoenix too. The whole "we're too spread out, so it'll never work" argument has been disproven time and again in other cities. Then there are the people who won't support it because it won't be in their neighborhood first. It has to start somewhere.

Phoenix actually learned a great deal from the experience in Houston. Several aspects of the system here were redesigned after reports of high accidents rate there. There is a six-inch curb to keep cars out of the train's path, and there will be dedicated left-turn lanes for cars at all intersections -- unlike in Houston where some problems have been attributed to shared lanes which left-turning cars can occupy at some times but not at others.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by miamiman

I oppose high-density development because I moved here for space. I am against high-density development because it is unnecessary due to the extremely low demand. Many people moved here for the views, the climate, and the space. Having high density development is something that the majority of Phoenicians do not really care about, or it would have been done 40-45 years ago. It WILL intensify the urban heat island allowing low temperatures to stay near or slightly above the century mark downtown during the summer. It seems there are certain people who will not be happy until Phoenix looks like Manhattan. I don't understand why people who seem to deeply crave an true urban experience stay in Phoenix and wait for it not to occur. There are so many other major cities where that kind of environment is already established and where there is high demand for even more urban-related amenities. I would only support light rail if it took a noticeable number of people off the freeways to allow me to drive from Point A to Point B faster. Not going to happen.

This is a North Scottsdale attitude, and it makes sense in that environment, but to apply it to Central Phoenix and Tempe makes no sense. Downtown Phoenix was once a more bustling environment -- despite the heat. On this board we regularly get inquiries from relocating people looking for walkable neighborhoods in Phoenix. First Fridays are full of people looking for an urban experience. Clearly, there is a demand for urbanity, and it doesn't mean Phoenix will look anything like Manhattan and it won't threaten your suburban existence so far removed from Downtown in North Scottsdale. I should probably know better than to try to reason with you, though. I just need to remind myself that anti-urban, anti-transit thinking has been rejected in two elections, even if communities, most notably Scottsdale, remain outside looking in. Negative comments here and elsewhere aside, light rail begins operations in 75 days and I look forward to it.

[jfre81]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Phoenix actually learned a great deal from the experience in Houston. Several aspects of the system here were redesigned after reports of high accidents rate there. There is a six-inch curb to keep cars out of the train's path, and there will be dedicated left-turn lanes for cars at all intersections -- unlike in Houston where some problems have been attributed to shared lanes which left-turning cars can occupy at some times but not at others.

That's an issue here, but for the most part the accidents come from people simply running red lights or just not paying attention. When that happens, I've got no sympathy whatsoever for these people. They can put the cellphone away and concentrate on driving or get off the roads and on the train/bus next time.

The only place where the left turn lane issue really comes up is the Texas Medical Center, where - again - riding the rail eliminates the issue of paying for parking. Good that Phoenix can apparently find a way around this problem though.

[azjack]

"Sitting in traffic on the 101 versus sipping your coffee while reading the morning paper on the train?"

That will cost you a $10 fine on the DC Metro. A full custodial arrest if you fail to put away your Snickers bar when directed.

I imagine that several more express bus options could have been made available in the various suburbs, as well increased bus capacity/frequency in the central areas, for far less than a billion dollars. On the other hand, the light rail sure is purdy.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by azjack

I imagine that several more express bus options could have been made available in the various suburbs, as well increased bus capacity/frequency in the central areas, for far less than a billion dollars. On the other hand, the light rail sure is purdy.

All of that has occured. Both the 2000 and 2004 elections were for comprehensive transportation packages, not just light rail. In fact, in both cases, less than half the money has gone to light rail. Since Phoenix got serious about transit back in 2000, new bus routes have been added, Sunday service has been restored for the first time in decades, and evening hours have been extended. It is a misconception that light rail has come at the expense of expanded bus service. In actualy, both modes of transport have been pursued simultaneously as equally important components of a comprehensive transit plan.

[cap1717]

I think the light rail system is terrific, and look forward to it's eventual extension to the North, East and Western sections of the valley! Having grown up in Chicago, with the excellent public transportation that city provides, I have always believed that Phoenix would benefit from both increased bus lines AND a light rail system. I also voted for this measure each time it appeared on the ballot.

[azjack]

"In actualy, both modes of transport have been pursued simultaneously as equally important components of a comprehensive transit plan."

While routes have been added/increased, they are still short of reaching a crossover point to a larger chunk of the population. With $3/plus gas in 2008, Valley Metro could have achieved (and could still achieve) a real steady ridership from those with other options. But with many suburban routes leaving downtown (for the last time) at 5:08 pm or so, these routes are barely viable options for even 9-5ers. I have to say, I would use express buses nearly every day if 6 or 7 pm was an option. As it stands, I use an express bus about twice a month.

Speaking of standing, routes need to be able to expand (and contract) when circumstances change. I have heard of some standing-room only express (and local) routes right after gas prices really skyrocketed. Even during lean times, a person who does not embrace public transport will surely give up on it if he finds himself standing for 40 minutes, even occasionally (or once). Again, it is possible that the light rail-specific dollars could have reached more people with more routes and more low-emissions buses.

I will not indict the entire system based on limited recent experience, but my last ride on a non-express bus was odd. I was at an early-morning meeting downtown almost a year ago and decided that I would use the Red Line to head over to the airport at 8am-ish (I only had one small bag) instead of taking a shuttle or bugging someone else to drop me off. I waited 40-45 minutes for that Red Line to pick me up. Three were scheduled to have been there during that time period. I suspect that this was not an isolated occurence. I think that Valley Metro has serious customer service problems and is too inflexible to reach a broader spectrum of the population. While the light rail may be nice, it may distract VM further. The majority of VM's ridership will still be express and local bus riders for at least a decade, correct? The bus experience needs to be improved, even with the light rail jewel on display.

So, what is the deal now with the airport and the light rail? Is this shuttle/airport adjacent stop safe to wait at?

Also, I believe that the light rail's northernmost point is Christown. Is there a parking structure there aimed at people from other parts of Phoenix commuting to the rail system?

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by azjack

While routes have been added/increased, they are still short of reaching a crossover point to a larger chunk of the population. With $3/plus gas in 2008, Valley Metro could have achieved (and could still achieve) a real steady ridership from those with other options. But with many suburban routes leaving downtown (for the last time) at 5:08 pm or so, these routes are barely viable options for even 9-5ers. I have to say, I would use express buses nearly every day if 6 or 7 pm was an option. As it stands, I use an express bus about twice a month.

Speaking of standing, routes need to be able to expand (and contract) when circumstances change. I have heard of some standing-room only express (and local) routes right after gas prices really skyrocketed. Even during lean times, a person who does not embrace public transport will surely give up on it if he finds himself standing for 40 minutes, even occasionally (or once). Again, it is possible that the light rail-specific dollars could have reached more people with more routes and more low-emissions buses.

I will not indict the entire system based on limited recent experience, but my last ride on a non-express bus was odd. I was at an early-morning meeting downtown almost a year ago and decided that I would use the Red Line to head over to the airport at 8am-ish (I only had one small bag) instead of taking a shuttle or bugging someone else to drop me off. I waited 40-45 minutes for that Red Line to pick me up. Three were scheduled to have been there during that time period. I suspect that this was not an isolated occurence. I think that Valley Metro has serious customer service problems and is too inflexible to reach a broader spectrum of the population. While the light rail may be nice, it may distract VM further. The majority of VM's ridership will still be express and local bus riders for at least a decade, correct? The bus experience needs to be improved, even with the light rail jewel on display.

So, what is the deal now with the airport and the light rail? Is this shuttle/airport adjacent stop safe to wait at?

Also, I believe that the light rail's northernmost point is Christown. Is there a parking structure there aimed at people from other parts of Phoenix commuting to the rail system?

I agree that bus service can and should be much better, and it is likely to continue to improve in the long run. My point was not that bus service is ideal right now, but instead that it has been improved steadily at the same time that light rail has been under construction. Light rail has not taken away from bus improvements, and at this point they are staffed separately, so one should not distract from the other.

As for the 44th / Washington Station, I would not be nervous about waiting there for a few minutes for an airport shuttle bus. Right now, I transfer buses at that intersection and I've never felt uncomfortable there.

There will be a surface lot at Christown for light rail users. It will accomodate 800 cars. A few years later, when the line is extended to Dunlap, there will be a 1000-car garage at that station. There will be security at all park-and-ride facilities.