Scottsdale School District...how good really?? (Phoenix, Mesa: credit, relocate, property taxes)

[ajgranda]

Hi,

I've posted here several times along with the Raleigh, NC forum. My wife, infant daughter and I are looking to relocate from an area in NY which is known for "GREAT" schools. We are currently looking at N Scottsdale and Cary, NC (maybe no more). It's a quality of life and cost issue. As expensive as N Scottsdale is, where we now live is actually a little more expensive.
Cary, NC was recommended by some friends of my wife and also "Money Magazine", so we decided to do some research and speak to realtors. Our main priority lies in our daughters safety and education. I'm a former police officer who is over protected I will admit.

We spoke to several realtors who raved about how great the Wake County school system is. Well, after doing some research of my own I found out how prevalent busing and "redistricting" (the realtor term for desegregation) is in that county. They are taking children from the suburbs and busing them miles away into the inner city of Raleigh and vice a versa to meet their social-economic diversity standards in the schools. They don't call it desegregation because instead of race they are using social-economic criteria which for the most part is the same. There are lawsuits currently in the books because of this and many parents in an uproar. No one can be totally guaranteed what school their child will go to no matter where they live. This is unacceptable for my family. I grew up in Yonkers, NY where I was a Police Officer and I saw first hand what desegregation and busing can do to a school and the surrounding neighborhood. In Yonkers case, it has been horrific.

My question is how "excellant" is the Scottsdale School District really? Is it excellant just compared to the rest of Arizona? Of course, all the realtors rave about them, but the same was said for Wake County. Are there any similar problems or any problems at all I should be concerned with? We are looking at the following Scottsdale SD zips 85255,85260,25259. This would also pertain to the Cave Creek Unified School District as we are also looking up in the 85262 zip code, south of Cave Creek.

I really appreciate any feedback you can provide us. We are trying to avoid the financial burden that 12 years of private schools would cause us.

Thanks so much

[irwin]

Originally Posted by ajgranda

Hi,

I've posted here several times along with the Raleigh, NC forum. My wife, infant daughter and I are looking to relocate from an area in NY which is known for "GREAT" schools. We are currently looking at N Scottsdale and Cary, NC (maybe no more). It's a quality of life and cost issue. As expensive as N Scottsdale is, where we now live is actually a little more expensive.
Cary, NC was recommended by some friends of my wife and also "Money Magazine", so we decided to do some research and speak to realtors. Our main priority lies in our daughters safety and education. I'm a former police officer who is over protected I will admit.

We spoke to several realtors who raved about how great the Wake County school system is. Well, after doing some research of my own I found out how prevalent busing and "redistricting" (the realtor term for desegregation) is in that county. They are taking children from the suburbs and busing them miles away into the inner city of Raleigh and vice a versa to meet their social-economic diversity standards in the schools. They don't call it desegregation because instead of race they are using social-economic criteria which for the most part is the same. There are lawsuits currently in the books because of this and many parents in an uproar. No one can be totally guaranteed what school their child will go to no matter where they live. This is unacceptable for my family. I grew up in Yonkers, NY where I was a Police Officer and I saw first hand what desegregation and busing can do a school and the surrounding neighborhood. In Yonkers case, it has been horrific.

My question is how "excellant" is the Scottsdale School District really? Is it excellant just compared to the rest of Arizona? Of course, all the realtors rave about them, but the same was said for Wake County. Are there any similar problems or any problems at all I should be concerned with? We are looking at the following Scottsdale SD zips 85255,85260,25259. This would also pertain to the Cave Creek Unified School District as we are also looking up in the 85262 zip code, south of Cave Creek.

I really appreciate any feedback you can provide us. We are trying to avoid the financial burden that 12 years of private schools would cause us.

Thanks so much

I can't tell you about specific schools, but in general the public education system in Arizona is terrible. Depending on the ranking you look at, it is at the bottom or near the bottom (i.e. worse than Mississippi). There may be a few gems in the rough, but the general rule seems pretty prevalent, especially when compared to schools back East (I moved out here from Northern VA, just outside of DC).

Just something to keep in mind.

[AZ Rider]

Putting aside the statistics in favor of reality, here's how it works in AZ: generally the more expensive the neighborhood, the better the schools. The best schools, ones that get top ranking by greatschools.net, where kids score well above national averages on ACTs, SATs, where the dropout rate is very low, where discipline problems are less frequent, are all in upscale neighborhoods. There are good schools all over the Phoenix area. There are bad one in the poor neighborhoods. Sounds like you have the same issues where you come from if they are using busing to achieve social integration. AZ has not tried that yet. They have tried magnet schools and a restructuring of school financing. The latter has brought newer facilities to the poor area, but they continue to struggle with illegals and non-English speakers and I doubt they will ever be very successful regardless of the surroundings.

So, yes, Scottsdale schools are good if you are talking north Scottsdale where the money is. South Scottsdale is an older area and the residents are not in the same socio-economic group as their northern brethren. So are Gilbert schools, Chandler schools, Goodyear schools, Peoria schools - anywhere there are children of affluent families. You don't have to live in north Scottsdale to have good schools.

I would check greatschools.net for the best available details. Keep in mind, though, that their ratings are heavily weighted to test scores and that doesn't tell the whole story.

[wamommy1]

I lived in AZ for 5 years and give you my personal expereince with kids in school. I now live in Seattle. There are pockets of great neighborhoods in all cities from the post above. Some schools in the Kyrene School district are good (Chandler/Tempe) I don't know which ones since I didn't live in that school district. The Gilbert School district was beyond great! Specifically, Highland High, and Gilbert High, Greenfield Jr High, and Carole Rae Ranch Elem.

As far as N scottsdale goes I have friends who live there and the schools are also good. They love Copper Ridge Elem and Middle school. If I ever moved back I would either put my kids in the Scottsdale school system or the Gilbert schools. Parent involvement in both districts is very high which is an added plus.


I hope this helps.


Good luck on your move.

[ajgranda]

Thanks for the responses so far. The main difference I see with Wake County, NC vs. other areas of the country is that their school district is county wide. Every other district I've heard of is broken down by individual city, town or village and not the entire county. At least that's the way it is here in tne N/E and looks to be the same in AZ.

[ethurston]

It goes almost with the city lines but not quite. Here in Gilbert, we have some schools that are actually in Mesa, weird I know. In judging schools, please don't go by test scores. Definitely go by personal recommendation and your own feeling. I recently had to find a kindergarten for my son and blogged about it. It's a huge decision and we live in a great school district.

For Scottsdale specifically, I have many friends that have moved to Scottsdale because they wanted a great school district but didn't want the commute from Gilbert. Now, it is true that Arizona schools are bad compared to the rest of the country but in affluent areas, parents demand the best. And yes 80% of an AZ school's budget comes from property taxes. You can make the connection.

BTW, if you have a child that is in any way challenged, mentally or physically, even a reading disability, Gilbert and Scottsdale school districts are the way to go. They pour a ton of money into early intervention, individual transportation, aides, etc. With autism becoming so prevalent, I have friends coming into the state specifically to live in either Gilbert or Scottsdale school districts.

[AZ Rider]

Originally Posted by ajgranda

Thanks for the responses so far. The main difference I see with Wake County, NC vs. other areas of the country is that their school district is county wide. Every other district I've heard of is broken down by individual city, town or village and not the entire county. At least that's the way it is here in tne N/E and looks to be the same in AZ.

School boundaries here have nothing to do with city boundaries. The school districts are older than the cities! Kyrene, one of the best in the state, covers parts of Phoenix, Chandler, and Tempe for example. You definitely do not want to presume you are in a particular school boundary based just on your address, zip, or anything like that. Verify!

[ajgranda]

OK, but are they busing children outside their general geographical location or do they bus the kids to the nearest schools in proximity to where they live? The problem with Wake County is that they are busing some (not all) children 2-3 schools beyond where they live. I've never heard of this before and I can't understand how the community permits this..
Thanks

Originally Posted by AZ Rider

School boundaries here have nothing to do with city boundaries. The school districts are older than the cities! Kyrene, one of the best in the state, covers parts of Phoenix, Chandler, and Tempe for example. You definitely do not want to presume you are in a particular school boundary based just on your address, zip, or anything like that. Verify!

[steve22]

Originally Posted by irwin

I can't tell you about specific schools, but in general the public education system in Arizona is terrible. Depending on the ranking you look at, it is at the bottom or near the bottom (i.e. worse than Mississippi). There may be a few gems in the rough, but the general rule seems pretty prevalent, especially when compared to schools back East (I moved out here from Northern VA, just outside of DC).

Just something to keep in mind.

Being the best school district in AZ is a bit like being the tallest midget at the circus, if you catch my drift... not exactly a prestigious distinction.

The issue isn't really money or a lack thereof, it's a tax issue, or basically an unwillingness to support schools financially with increased taxes, or much of anything else, for that matter. Arizonans are legendary for their fiscal stinginess. They don't particularly want to give more of their money to the government for any reason if it means compromising their lifestyles in the short term. That's why the roads are in bad shape in many areas of the Valley, the schools are underfunded, the police and FD services are understaffed, so on and so forth. There's a very short-sighted, live-for-the-present and future-be-damned attitude here which is incredibly frustrating, especially for those of us with kids who are concerned about where the quality of life here is headed in the future.

[TeacherGuyMi]

I don't know much about Scottsdale Schools but just in general, Arizona schools are hurting for teachers. I'm a recent college grad who's looking for a teaching job in Arizona. I've received offers from two districts after interviewing with them over the phone. I am very qualified, however it amazes me how quickly the HR people were able to determine that I was qualified enough to teach in their district. Part of this is due to the lack of teachers being produced by Arizona's universities, however I am still blown away. Here in Michigan, in order to get a teaching job, you typically have to compete with between 500 and 1,000 other applicants for each opening. Most districts conduct at least two interviews along with requiring the finalists to come in and teach an actual lesson.
Teacher salaries in Arizona are not that great either. In Liberty (which is a pretty solid district from what I've learned), the highest paid teacher makes about $39,000 a year. This is someone with a Masters' degree and at least 25 years of experience. Obviously, every district is different, however from what I've gathered, I'll max out at around $45K a year if I spend my entire career in Arizona. I do know that teachers in Chandler top out at $60K a year. If anyone is curious, it is pretty easy to find exactly how much teachers make by looking on each districts' website. In Michigan, first year teachers typically start out making $40k a year. Also, it is a lot easier to get a teaching certificate in Arizona than it is in other states. For example: In Arizona in order to become a 'Reading Specialist' (someone who works with struggling readers and who helps to coordinate a schools' literacy program), you just need 18 credit hours of college coursework related to Reading instruction at the undergrad level. In Michigan, you need a Masters' in Reading. I absolutely could not believe this, given that I just completed a course of study that included 29 credit hours of classes related to Reading instruction as an undergrad.
I am not complaining about Arizona's low teacher certification standards and low teacher salaries because the state affords me a great opportunity to start my career. However as an outsider, I can see how all of these factors contribute to Arizona's difficulty in the retention of their top teachers, in part because of the salary difference, which probably contributes to the fact that the state's education system isn't that strong.