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Old 01-06-2009, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
11,315 posts, read 9,403,028 times
Reputation: 14443
Default Congratulations to Phoenix!

So, finally, some signs of civilization have come to Phoenix, and if more tracks are laid down, I may just return to Phoenix to retire. Having ridden the new LRT in Portland recently, I saw higher density housing being built at the various stops, and this will happen in Phoenix as well, stimulating ridership over the years. I left Phoenix 13 years ago because of the police forever pulling you over for this and that and this and that. I'm surprised Joe Arpaio wasn't vehemently opposed to this project as his ego may just shrink a little bit as a result of fewer moving violations and DUI arrests. If you type in Light Rail USA, Wikepedia will show you all the light rail projects have been built across the country and are in various stages of planning. It's mind-boggling! And I'm surprised the car companies haven't been lobbying hard to stop cities from laying down more tracks in their cities.

If you'll recall, back in the 30's a consortium called National City Lines, comprised of General Motors, Phillips Petroleum, Standard Oil of CA, Firstone and Mack Truck MFG, conspired to buy up all the streetcar lines in 45 cities across the country, with the purpose of destroying them so everyone would become more dependent on the automobile. And how they succeeded! Imagine! If that had not occurred! Imagine what the shape of our cities would be today had they steadily improved those streetcar systems over the years since the 30's! We never would have needed all those freeways. And who was appointed to head the Highway Dept. back in the 50's but the head of General Motors! And the police? Give speeding or DUI tickets to the streetcar drivers?

 
Old 01-06-2009, 10:22 PM
 
105 posts, read 139,280 times
Reputation: 32
Apparently this forum has a very low tolerance for people who criticize light rail. It definitely makes me wonder who is running the show here, and what other types of ideas they censor.

My ideas obviously didn't conform to whoever decides what can be said. The following has been locked.

http://www.city-data.com/forum/phoenix-area/530144-light-rail-fiasco-i-will-never.html

Internet censorship shouldn't be tolerated anywhere. Shame on all of you that condone this kind of behavior.
 
Old 01-06-2009, 10:34 PM
 
Location: Avondale, AZ
1,038 posts, read 2,112,605 times
Reputation: 941
I believe it was locked because you are unable to state your point without being rude; which brings out the beast in the rest of us. Problem solved!
 
Old 01-06-2009, 10:39 PM
 
4,886 posts, read 5,313,671 times
Reputation: 3036
Quote:
Originally Posted by tijlover View Post
So, finally, some signs of civilization have come to Phoenix, and if more tracks are laid down, I may just return to Phoenix to retire. Having ridden the new LRT in Portland recently, I saw higher density housing being built at the various stops, and this will happen in Phoenix as well, stimulating ridership over the years. I left Phoenix 13 years ago because of the police forever pulling you over for this and that and this and that. I'm surprised Joe Arpaio wasn't vehemently opposed to this project as his ego may just shrink a little bit as a result of fewer moving violations and DUI arrests. If you type in Light Rail USA, Wikepedia will show you all the light rail projects have been built across the country and are in various stages of planning. It's mind-boggling! And I'm surprised the car companies haven't been lobbying hard to stop cities from laying down more tracks in their cities.

If you'll recall, back in the 30's a consortium called National City Lines, comprised of General Motors, Phillips Petroleum, Standard Oil of CA, Firstone and Mack Truck MFG, conspired to buy up all the streetcar lines in 45 cities across the country, with the purpose of destroying them so everyone would become more dependent on the automobile. And how they succeeded! Imagine! If that had not occurred! Imagine what the shape of our cities would be today had they steadily improved those streetcar systems over the years since the 30's! We never would have needed all those freeways. And who was appointed to head the Highway Dept. back in the 50's but the head of General Motors! And the police? Give speeding or DUI tickets to the streetcar drivers?
Great post!!! I know this has been said before, but light rail is about providing choices (other than driving) and a "spine" for urban development to grow around. If cities don't ever invest in URBAN INFRASTRUCTURE, URBAN DESIGN will never come!!! It is that simple. I say great job to Phoenix for recognizing that it is NEVER too late to change the development pattern of a city. I think other cities dealing with sprawl should take notes from Phoenix and build the trains now!!!
 
Old 01-06-2009, 10:43 PM
 
105 posts, read 139,280 times
Reputation: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by CodyW View Post
I believe it was locked because you are unable to state your point without being rude; which brings out the beast in the rest of us. Problem solved!
Nice try, but I wasn't the one to start hurtling insults around. This is just plain censorship Moderator cut: rude comments

Last edited by sablebaby; 01-07-2009 at 10:50 PM..
 
Old 01-06-2009, 10:47 PM
 
Location: Avondale, AZ
1,038 posts, read 2,112,605 times
Reputation: 941
That's a good idea! I'll get right on it!
 
Old 01-06-2009, 10:57 PM
 
919 posts, read 2,112,191 times
Reputation: 527
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverbear View Post
You're a hater -- maybe not of all rail, but certainly of this worthwhile project in Phoenix. Only a hater would continue to bring this issue up again and again. Only a hater would continue to use shifting arguments to knock down a project that has already been implemented. Only a hater would propose mutually contradictory alternatives that aren't alternatives at all: neighborhood circulators one week, a network of light rail all over Central Phoenix the next, etc. Only a hater would continually inflate and distort the numbers in every discussion of cost.

As for the confidence factor, let's begin with the decision to hire the person responsible for Minneapolis' successful light rail implementation to manage the system in Phoenix. You've said previously that our local rail officials have no experience with this type of project. From the top down, that's just plain wrong. But why let the facts stand in the way of hate? Please, just give it a rest for a while. A year from now, if ridership is low and accidents are high, come back with all the "I told you so's" you want, but right now it's as if the city is having a great party and you're pouting in the corner because you didn't get your way.
You use the word hater a lot. I would suggest getting a thesaurus to mix things up. I'd refer you to my friend at the library - but she was just laid off because PHX has gutted the staff, partly due to rail cost obligations. On the bright side, she can now avoid $8 for parking a Dbacks games. Since the seniors are also booted from their centers, I hope she brings them along to enjoy the toy. In any case, there is one bookstore on the starter line... though it's closing, so you'd best hurry.

Memo to the guy from Minneapolis: Sorry nobody gave you a map. There's actually nothing along Washington, the major East/West route. Except for the airport, of course, which only needs $1 Billion more to actually connect. The bulk of residents, retail, business, hospitals, schools, etc are further north - trapped by the Great Wall of 202. Along streets like McDowell or Thomas. Home to the crowded bus stops your agency is also in charge of managing/cutting. You know - buses. The things that go in multiple directions and are wonderful in cities like London and San Fran, given competent leadership. In any case, I'm sure it was an oversight and only cost $700 million for the Blight Rail segment. Thankfully we can sell tickets to tourists... kind of like our urban version of the Wild Animal Park.

As for usage projections, today I drove downtown along the route, from Papago/Priest to Central then up to Indian School, then cut back to Thomas and headed back East. 8 a.m. Prime rush hour. Very few people at the stations. Quite a few stations with nobody home. Of the trains I cruised by, none had more people than any small bus. So much for opening week. With endless media coverage, they should be packed. But you could be right about the increased use actually arriving in a year. After all, the business community has been flooding the route with massive new developments. Just kidding. The only major projects are also taxpayer financed. There doesn't actually seem to be one legit national business of any type along the entire route that is investing a dime. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Apparently some people in this town didn't get a choo choo as a child. Or is it that many are suffering from some form of object envy? But fear not that I'm pouting. The air is cleaner, the traffic smoother and we're definitely more of a cosmopolitan city - Just today I was called a hater 5 times. Too funny.
 
Old 01-06-2009, 11:13 PM
 
Location: USA
3,971 posts, read 6,050,673 times
Reputation: 2104
Quote:
Originally Posted by chandlerguy View Post
Nice try, but I wasn't the one to start hurtling insults around. This is just plain censorship and you are a nazi for condoning it. Do you use swastikas for the wallpaper on your computer?
you don't give up do you? Im sure this forum supports debates in a big way. But when you add racist, untruthful, comments, well you know where that leads. No where. Isn't playing the blame game unnecessary?
 
Old 01-06-2009, 11:20 PM
 
4,886 posts, read 5,313,671 times
Reputation: 3036
Quote:
Originally Posted by joninaz View Post
You use the word hater a lot. I would suggest getting a thesaurus to mix things up. I'd refer you to my friend at the library - but she was just laid off because PHX has gutted the staff, partly due to rail cost obligations. On the bright side, she can now avoid $8 for parking a Dbacks games. Since the seniors are also booted from their centers, I hope she brings them along to enjoy the toy. In any case, there is one bookstore on the starter line... though it's closing, so you'd best hurry.

Memo to the guy from Minneapolis: Sorry nobody gave you a map. There's actually nothing along Washington, the major East/West route. Except for the airport, of course, which only needs $1 Billion more to actually connect. The bulk of residents, retail, business, hospitals, schools, etc are further north - trapped by the Great Wall of 202. Along streets like McDowell or Thomas. Home to the crowded bus stops your agency is also in charge of managing/cutting. You know - buses. The things that go in multiple directions and are wonderful in cities like London and San Fran, given competent leadership. In any case, I'm sure it was an oversight and only cost $700 million for the Blight Rail segment. Thankfully we can sell tickets to tourists... kind of like our urban version of the Wild Animal Park.

As for usage projections, today I drove downtown along the route, from Papago/Priest to Central then up to Indian School, then cut back to Thomas and headed back East. 8 a.m. Prime rush hour. Very few people at the stations. Quite a few stations with nobody home. Of the trains I cruised by, none had more people than any small bus. So much for opening week. With endless media coverage, they should be packed. But you could be right about the increased use actually arriving in a year. After all, the business community has been flooding the route with massive new developments. Just kidding. The only major projects are also taxpayer financed. There doesn't actually seem to be one legit national business of any type along the entire route that is investing a dime. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Apparently some people in this town didn't get a choo choo as a child. Or is it that many are suffering from some form of object envy? But fear not that I'm pouting. The air is cleaner, the traffic smoother and we're definitely more of a cosmopolitan city - Just today I was called a hater 5 times. Too funny.
Very insightful yet flawed. You are not understanding that this is the start of something much bigger. It is the start of Phoenix's urban evolution. I post on here because I live in a city that has a 1 year old light rail line. My city is also HALF the size of Phoenix's metro!!! Given the fact that my city had the same rail "lovers and haters" I see here in Phoenix, I felt I should at least tell the rail lovers that the ridership numbers will increase gradually within the first year and all the rail "haters" WILL BE proven wrong!!! We can debate this all day and night, but show me one sunbelt city where rail has failed (and don't you dare say Charlotte because I know better; don't dare say Phoenix either because the darn thing just opened).

If you (rail "haters") can name ONE sunbelt city where rail has failed, let's talk about why it failed. Other than that, I think all anti-rail statements from here on out are part of some greater covert anti-socialism/anti-tax agenda.
 
Old 01-06-2009, 11:30 PM
 
3,295 posts, read 6,064,233 times
Reputation: 1875
Quote:
Originally Posted by joninaz View Post

As for usage projections, today I drove downtown along the route, from Papago/Priest to Central then up to Indian School, then cut back to Thomas and headed back East. 8 a.m. Prime rush hour. Very few people at the stations. Quite a few stations with nobody home. Of the trains I cruised by, none had more people than any small bus. So much for opening week. With endless media coverage, they should be packed.
I think they knew you were coming and all ducked.

My experience today was a little different then yours, and I was out and about between 11:30 - 12:30.

Train going westbound around 24th St/Washington


Central/Monroe station


Westbound train again


Central/Van Buren station


Eastbound train @ 1st Ave/Van Buren station

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