Is Phoenix livable without air conditioning? (gated, airport, suburbs)

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by zenkonami

Not going to get into the scientific merits or demerits of Urban Heat Island Effects here (nor the definition of theory), but I do agree that there are a lot of other factors to take into account. The region is not homogenous, and taking into account things such as elevation, microclimates, effects of certain processes (farm techniques), etc...is important.

However, even if significant climate effects are not apparent across the region, the very localized effects are quite real. It may be, according to a thermometer, 111 in Surprise but 108 at Sky Harbor...head outside with a thermometer (and perhaps an egg if you're feeling peckish) and station that thermometer a couple feet off the ground and you may well see temperatures closer to 135 (I have done this.) The asphalt does radiate heat back at you...that's simple science. By contrast, hang around a golf course or grassy park in Phoenix and the temperature is rather less pronounced.

Again, there's no hard fast rule here, but the soles of my shoes never melted while walking around the White Tanks at 111. I have certainly gotten sticky foot walking down to Albertsons, however, in 105.

That is incorrect because the thermometer most likely wasn't reaching 135° over time from "radiating heat," but rather from magnification of the heat effect from the sun and the surface of the asphalt. Asphalt and concrete are believed to radiate heat at night. Meaning, the mercury or the mechanism measuring the temperature was affected by the constant exposure to the sun, just like the ground.

This is why there aren't fully exposed weather stations and temperature gauges, it becomes inaccurate. UHI is a theory for night time temperatures where it appears to be most true...when there is a slight "increase" in temperature. However, this is inconsistent since often outer and higher elevations around the metro are warmer at night compared to downtown Phoenix and Sky Harbor.

[tijlover]

Working the night shift would help to minimize the discomfort level in the desert. Work all night, grocery shop early mornings, sleep from 9AM to 5PM.
That's what I do!

I moved to Phoenix from Minnesota in 1993 with a new vehicle that didn't have A/C. Squandered $700 for a non-manufactured add-on and it was a total waste of money. Since then, I've lived without it.

But being a night shift worker, I'm never out in the thick of it during the daytime, even on my days off. But come Fall, I wish I were on the day shift.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

I'm sure there would be a lot less people living here, but that doesn't make it a place in which someone couldn't live/survive without AC; there are many that prefer or have to live without it. The question WASN'T how many want to live without air conditioning, but if one could. It was a ridiculously silly question when you think about it. And yes, many people from the past lived without modern conveniences and weren't too lazy to do things like dampen their sheets and hang them about to make themselves comfortable at night.

Guess it was a form of a "misting system" back in the day when people were and had to be more hearty.

I think you're missing what some of us are trying to get across: there are some people who can survive here just fine without A/C, but others cannot ... and a lot of that has to do with many factors, including age and health. Everybody is different. Just because someone has lived here for a long time does not always mean that he/she is accustomed to the heat. There was a time when I used to actually look forward to the summer heat, and was quite tolerant of it ... but now I can hardly stand five minutes out in the direct sun when it's over 100 degrees. My intolerance to the Phoenix heat has increased enormously as I've grown older due to health reasons.

And the urban heat island does indeed play a major part as to why the summers are more intense and less tolerable than they used to be. All you have to do is observe the climate statistics now vs. 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, or 80 years ago, and you'll clearly see that the average temperatures have become warmer in the Phoenix metro area. Look at the low temps in July & August now: they're often in the low 90s. Before the 1980s, the low temps in July & August often dropped to the lower 80s, and sometimes even into the 60s & lower 70s if there was a sufficient monsoon storm. Why do you think Phoenix hasn't officially recorded a record low minimum temperature in almost 19 years, but we keep on setting record high maximum temperature frequently every single year???

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

I think you're missing what some of us are trying to get across: there are some people who can survive here just fine without A/C, but others cannot ... and a lot of that has to do with many factors, including age and health. Everybody is different. Just because someone has lived here for a long time does not always mean that he/she is accustomed to the heat. There was a time when I used to actually look forward to the summer heat, and was quite tolerant of it ... but now I can hardly stand five minutes out in the direct sun when it's over 100 degrees. My intolerance to the Phoenix heat has increased enormously as I've grown older due to health reasons.

And the urban heat island does indeed play a major part as to why the summers are more intense and less tolerable than they used to be. All you have to do is observe the climate statistics now vs. 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, or 80 years ago, and you'll clearly see that the average temperatures have become warmer in the Phoenix metro area. Look at the low temps in July & August now: they're often in the low 90s. Before the 1980s, the low temps in July & August often dropped to the lower 80s, and sometimes even into the 60s & lower 70s if there was a sufficient monsoon storm. Why do you think Phoenix hasn't officially recorded a record low minimum temperature in almost 19 years, but we keep on setting record high maximum temperature frequently every single year???

True, but then some people can't live in the cold when they get older. What's your point?

Again, much of what you state is media driven "beliefs" out of some data that is not completely understood. Trying to make a theory a hard and cold fact is delusional and somewhat ignorant. Currently, much of the West is in a drought. Has been for nearly 10 years or more. A drought situation causes temperatures, especially in a desert, to rise gradually because of a lack of atmospheric disturbances and the overall affect of less precipitation. However, weather patterns and dry/wet, hot/cold periods are cyclical. Just like real estate...LOL! This we know and have evidence from as far back as the Roman Empire. Did you know that the Alps were at one time almost completely void of winter snow packs? People used to be able to trek through the Alps without having to necessarily find a snow free pass.

That being said, the "UHI" of Phoenix isn't controlling the drought that is effecting much of the Western U.S. Temperatures are rising for a variety of factors and global warming might be one cause since it could be affecting wind patterns, water temps, jet stream, and ocean temps. But what we do know from records preserved by nature is that the west has suffered through extensive droughts and warmer than "normal" temperatures. The 1920's were an especially wet decade for the American Southwest and we have not seen such a wet period since. However, there is likely to be another decade or years of such weather patterns. Right now we are in a dryer than normal , warmer than normal cycle. Nonetheless, it is survivable.

[Ritchie_az]

El Nino is back (also cyclical), and just might bring a bunch of rain.

[las vegas drunk]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

I think you're missing what some of us are trying to get across: there are some people who can survive here just fine without A/C, but others cannot ... and a lot of that has to do with many factors, including age and health. Everybody is different. Just because someone has lived here for a long time does not always mean that he/she is accustomed to the heat. There was a time when I used to actually look forward to the summer heat, and was quite tolerant of it ... but now I can hardly stand five minutes out in the direct sun when it's over 100 degrees. My intolerance to the Phoenix heat has increased enormously as I've grown older due to health reasons.

And the urban heat island does indeed play a major part as to why the summers are more intense and less tolerable than they used to be. All you have to do is observe the climate statistics now vs. 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, or 80 years ago, and you'll clearly see that the average temperatures have become warmer in the Phoenix metro area. Look at the low temps in July & August now: they're often in the low 90s. Before the 1980s, the low temps in July & August often dropped to the lower 80s, and sometimes even into the 60s & lower 70s if there was a sufficient monsoon storm. Why do you think Phoenix hasn't officially recorded a record low minimum temperature in almost 19 years, but we keep on setting record high maximum temperature frequently every single year???

A lot of that has to do with all the asphalt and building that have been built. They hold the heat in so the overnight lows do not drop like they used too. Just look at Wickenburg, it gets just as hot during the day, but cools off at least 10 degrees cooler overnight. Phoenix used to be the same way many years ago.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by las vegas drunk

A lot of that has to do with all the asphalt and building that have been built. They hold the heat in so the overnight lows do not drop like they used too. Just look at Wickenburg, it gets just as hot during the day, but cools off at least 10 degrees cooler overnight. Phoenix used to be the same way many years ago.

Not necessarily, Wickenburg is usually a lot cooler than Phoenix during the day. This has to do with its situation near the gradual rise of the Valley floor near the Bradshaw Mountain Ranges. The town is higher in elevation basically, so naturally, it would cool off faster day or night. It would be wiser to take a city of same elevation, say Avondale, or even Surprise which sits a little higher than Phoenix and compare temperatures. Usually, those two cities, among others, and some in the South East Valley record higher day and night time temperatures than downtown Phoenix or Sky Harbor. This happens despite those communities being closer to natural desert and surrounded by agriculturally farmed land.

[las vegas drunk]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

Not necessarily, Wickenburg is usually a lot cooler than Phoenix during the day. This has to do with its situation near the gradual rise of the Valley floor near the Bradshaw Mountain Ranges. The town is higher in elevation basically, so naturally, it would cool off faster day or night. It would be wiser to take a city of same elevation, say Avondale, or even Surprise which sits a little higher than Phoenix and compare temperatures. Usually, those two cities, among others, and some in the South East Valley record higher day and night time temperatures than downtown Phoenix or Sky Harbor. This happens despite those communities being closer to natural desert and surrounded by agriculturally farmed land.

I looked it up and Wickenburg is typically 2 degrees cooler during the day, but 10 degrees cooler at night. It is 1000 feet higher in elevation like you said which I was not aware of. However, my friend works at the Perryville Prison, and he always says it is cooler out there overnights than Phoenix. He lives in Elmirage, and also claims it gets colder overnight than his mother's house which is on 35th avenue and Cactus.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by las vegas drunk

I looked it up and Wickenburg is typically 2 degrees cooler during the day, but 10 degrees cooler at night. It is 1000 feet higher in elevation like you said which I was not aware of. However, my friend works at the Perryville Prison, and he always says it is cooler out there overnights than Phoenix. He lives in Elmirage, and also claims it gets colder overnight than his mother's house which is on 35th avenue and Cactus.

If you look up the temps on Weather Underground and the Weather Channel you will see there isn't a significant temp change, even at Perryville in Goodyear. These two sites give hour by hour temperatures. I am up way to early, LOL, but here in downtown it is 83° at 5:23a.m. In Surprise it is 86.5°, and El Mirage is at 86°, Mesa is also at 86.5°, and Apache Junction is at 85.2°. At Sky Harbor it is 84° at this same time. The prison in Goodyear is the same as downtown, 83°. So, very inconsistent. Same will be true for day time highs. Also, it is 82.6° in Wickenburg...1000ft higer than Phoenix...another inconsistency.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

If you look up the temps on Weather Underground and the Weather Channel you will see there isn't a significant temp change, even at Perryville in Goodyear. These two sites give hour by hour temperatures. I am up way to early, LOL, but here in downtown it is 83° at 5:23a.m. In Surprise it is 86.5°, and El Mirage is at 86°, Mesa is also at 86.5°, and Apache Junction is at 85.2°. At Sky Harbor it is 84° at this same time. The prison in Goodyear is the same as downtown, 83°. So, very inconsistent. Same will be true for day time highs. Also, it is 82.6° in Wickenburg...1000ft higer than Phoenix...another inconsistency.

I have a weather station at my house with some very nice, accurate equipment. I am a hobbyist. I generally run 2 degrees above the airport max highs and 3-5 degrees below in summer. In winter, more often than not I am higher both day and night (temperature inversion due to relative elevation at Estrella). I was fortunate enough to be involved in a study years ago of the urban heat island. We flew around in instrumented aircraft at various altitudes over the course of several "monsoon" nights collecting and evaluating data. I was not one of the scientists involved in the study, just an observer. But to me watching my data screen, it was quite easy to detect the heat island. As we approached Phoenix core, the temps would jump throughout out the vertical column and would decline when leaving the area. What is more questionable is what effect it has on things like monsoon storms. You hear all sorts of claims that storms are less etc, but there is not a lot of good science behind them, I don't believe. But it is hotter (at night) in the urban core than it would be were there no urban core. That's not debatable.

A report was produced and if I can find a link to it I will post that.