In defense of Phoenix (Scottsdale, Tempe: environment, skyscraper, estate)

[moose168]

For young families from CA, PHX is a place where they can finally afford to buy a house and live the American dream.

Yes, but what about jobs? Not the call centers, but high-paying, professional type of career opportunities>>>>>>>> those that are severely lacking here, but prevail in other cities that are smaller than Phoenix?
What about higher education? Not ASS-U, but the real colleges where one goes to study and develop a career path, instead of party or slack off?

For Mexican immigrants, PHX is "El Norte."

Do you think that's a virtue?
I don't want to provoke racial issues, but it's a fact that most of the illegals here are Mexican. That so-called culture commits a high percentage of crimes. A friend of mine had his car broken into - by a Mexican.
I'm sorry, but the Mexicans tend to be among the loser-types I mentioned earler who are attracted to this area for cheap labor - in other words, the Wal-Mart culture.

There are some historic oddball personalities that have lived here-- some of whom we are living with right now.

Uh-huh. I see.
So in your mind, that's something that makes Phoenix unique - oddball types? No thank you. I've encountered enough oddballs who aren't celebrities. If they're not involved in the shady money deals like drugs or fly-by-night business, they're the losers who nobody cares about anyway.

Who knows? PHX isn't, and never was a high-ticket world-famous city. It ain't New York, it ain't Hollywood, it ain't Las Vegas. It's Middle America.

I think you need a geography lesson.
Middle America is defined as the center of the nation - the plains, the midwest, and perhaps the Ohio valley. Phoenix is southwest.

Ever seen how many people hike Camelback mountain every day? Go there at 6:00 in the morning and then tell me everybody here is out of shape. Your lifestyle is your own choice.

Ever seen how many injuries and heat-related incidents occur as a result of hiking Camelback mountain? Even 6 in the morning is plenty warm in June, July, and August with the intensity of the sun; and heat-island effect as a result of your beloved strip-mall, asphalt-laden environment.

[nevercoldcall]

A couple of thoughts here from a 7-year Phoenician who moved to Orange County several weeks ago:

First of all I have nothing against suburbia. After all I moved from Phoenix, one big suburb, to another. However, things are much better executed here. The strip malls we do have are well-designed and beautified with lots of trees and landscaping rather than the Taco Bell look.

On the whole "downtown" issue I will say I am from the NYC area and hate the city life. I lived in Phoenix and now OC specifically because I strongly prefer this type of layout over the "downtown" city center that everyone in Phoenix seems to want so badly.

On the fitness issue ... yes, Phoenix is noticeably fatter than many other areas, but so is New York. As someone who is from there, I can tell you that the mass-transit culture promotes obesity as much as car culture. New Yorkers simply sit on their fat butts in trains, buses, and cabs instead. The idea that they're all fitness models from walking everywhere is a total myth.

That's my take on it. Phoenix isn't all bad. If I couldn't afford to be here in OC I'd be back in Phoenix ... but far from Scottsdale ... THAT is one bunch of worthless obnoxious losers I can do without.

[aj661]

Moose, I admire what you're doing for your Mother. We provided 24/7 care for mine for her last 5 years due to Alzheimer's. I had several people say they couldn't do it and asked how we did. My response was always, "How could I not?"

Please try to take this in the context intended. It sounds like life is miserable for you here. Maybe you should reconsider taking your Mom back to CA with you. If she's a shut in, she might adapt better than you think.

I gotta ask since you brought this up on another thread; What years did you watch Wallace and Ladmo? For a kids show, it was amazing the amount of sharp, political satire they were able to interject. (I once got an autograph from "Hub Cap" at Legend City)

[Sean_Harrington]

Originally Posted by Andre5140

What is so bad about strip malls and free parking? It is easy to get around, cheaper, more comfortable, and more convenient. I've lived in Washington DC for a year and hated it. Every weekend I could not wait to get in my car and get out of the congestion.

I am about to finish a Masters in Urban Planning and I cannot believe how some people just think suburbia is hell. It is peaceful, inexpensive, and new. Cities are pretty to visit but wayyy over-rated fo living.

This is why metro Phoenix is a real city that refelcts how people want to really live in the 21st Century. I am moving to Tempe from Ann Arbor which is a small city that thinks its big: hard to park, hard to get around, overpriced crap that can be purchased 10 miles away. And what is wrong with commuting to work or the store in the comfort of a big, private automobile? You are not subject to smelly bums on a bus. You don't have to wait on an elogated timetable that solely determines if you bus comes or not, and you can move on your own time. Traffic jams are no fun...we can all agree. But it gives us time alone to decompress. They are tolerable and allow you to conduct business or personal matters thanks to the convenience of laptops and cell phones.

If you don't like Phoenix because it is not a city that conforms to the 19th Century definition, feel free to leave. After all, my Ford F-450 needs more room to operate safely.

If somebody with vision like you have, is getting a masters in urban planning, I guess that explains why most developments in the West look so awful.

[brian_2]

You said..

"If somebody with vision like you have, is getting a masters in urban planning, I guess that explains why most developments in the West look so awful."

He said..

"If you don't like Phoenix because it is not a city that conforms to the 19th Century definition, feel free to leave. After all, my Ford F-450 needs more room to operate safely."

I say..

You don't like congestion, why Tempe? (and) why the Ford F-450 crack? Isn't excessive self-indulgence (bigger homes, bigger vehicles, bigger meals, etc.) a lot of the reason we're less healthy, more crowded together, and coughing from more fouled air? Enjoy breathing that pristine air in Tempe Mr. Ann Arbor, and think about a vehicle that saves you $ at the pump - you'll be driving a lot in that 21st century city.

[Andre5140]

Hey folks, calm down and get a grip. Ever hear of sarcasm?? (with respect to "getting out of the way for my truck.") Sheesh.

Meanwhile, what difference does it make? How about this: you drive whatever you want and I drive what I want. Can't we all just get along? Instead of people acting like socialist-types who want to be in everyone's business, let's mind our own and look out for ourselves. Only we can pursue happiness on our own and do it with the liberty given to us by this great country.

Global warming is a big myth and effort to make people scared into paying higher taxes, anyways

Seriously though, every place in America is different. City-types who like density can move to larger cities. People like me who prefer ease of use and mobility can chose places like Phoenix (and the entire state of Michigan, for that matter )

Do whatever makes you comfortable. Just keep your petty laws off of me and my family and your greedy fingers out of my pockets. I'd rather give my money to the swine at Big Oil.

Density and transit-oriented developments are great. Ideally, there needs to be a balance between density and mobility when we build new cities; what is sustainable versus what is preferred. Any idiot planner can tell you that

What a great medium for all of us to vent! Have a nice weekend, all.

[AZ_singlemother]

The pay sucks here. Even with a college degree, they don't pay much but the cost of living is rising near Cali rates. New Yorkers and Calis think they are getting a deal bringing themselves and their savings/equity but it's all going run out after time when the salaries pay their lunches but not their lifestyles.

[nevercoldcall]

Originally Posted by Andre5140

Meanwhile, what difference does it make? How about this: you drive whatever you want and I drive what I want. Can't we all just get along? Instead of people acting like socialist-types who want to be in everyone's business, let's mind our own and look out for ourselves. Only we can pursue happiness on our own and do it with the liberty given to us by this great country.

Seriously though, every place in America is different. City-types who like density can move to larger cities. People like me who prefer ease of use and mobility can chose places like Phoenix (and the entire state of Michigan, for that matter )

Exactly! It's real simple: If you want a high-density city, go live in one. If you prefer to avoid the congestion, pollution and crime of high-density cities, go live in a modern western-style city such as Phoenix where I lived for 7 years or Orange County where I now live.

I enjoyed the open spaces of Phoenix and I especially love the fact that here in Newport Coast it is not at all crowded, it was developed with 75% of the land preserved as just that - land - and the air is crisp and clean with an amazingly blue sky. You just don't get that in a "real" city.

And here's the kicker - living in Newport, I drive maybe 1/5th as much as I did in Phoenix. Everything is VERY close - the grocery store, gym, cleaners, and about a half-dozen great restaurants are 1/4 mile away. (In a so-called "strip mall" that here is beautifully designed and landscaped and looks right out of Tuscany.)

My office on the Newport/Irvine border is 5 minutes away and in between here and there is Fashion Island and Newport Center Dr which has everything you can need and more. So why this obsession that only "real" cities are REAL? Sorry but I'm from the NYC area and have been to every large city in America and I'll take the open spaces and laid back lifestyle anytime over the dirt and congestion and crime of big city centers.

This hate of modern-day America and love for big old cities is most likely due to the fact that all the big cities are filled with and run by left-wing socialists. I'm quite happy now in the OC, "The Most Republican County in America." Nice job Andre on calling out the socialists and their agenda.

PS: Who is John Galt?

[vegaspilgrim]

Originally Posted by moose168

Yes, but what about jobs? Not the call centers, but high-paying, professional type of career opportunities>>>>>>>> those that are severely lacking here, but prevail in other cities that are smaller than Phoenix?
What about higher education? Not ASS-U, but the real colleges where one goes to study and develop a career path, instead of party or slack off?

ASU, and the Phoenix area is whatever you choose to make it. If you want to get real career education there, you can if you make the effort. Let's get real here-- not all the jobs here are call centers and burger flippers. Why does it matter what percentage of the population is blue collar vs. white collar, and the comparative quantity of "career opportunities"? Doesn't it only really matter if there is an opportunity for YOU, if you can find your niche? There are some big corporations here if you would care to look around. There's a heck of a lot of $500,000+ homes going up all over the place-- the money has to come from somewhere. Sorry you haven't been able to find a decent job here-- I guess you should move on then.

Uh-huh. I see.
So in your mind, that's something that makes Phoenix unique - oddball types? No thank you. I've encountered enough oddballs who aren't celebrities. If they're not involved in the shady money deals like drugs or fly-by-night business, they're the losers who nobody cares about anyway.

Man, you really do need to get the hell outta dodge, you can't even tell I'm joking! I'll be the first one to admit there's a lot of riff-raff, lowlifes, and mean people here-- check out some of my other postings. But you have to be able to laugh at the whole thing too. I think there really is a unique cast of characters that only come together in this concentration here in AZ. Living in Phoenix in 2007 is being part of a vibrant moment in time. Wherever you happen to live, enjoy what your place has to offer. I'll probably be moving in the next several years too.

I think you need a geography lesson.
Middle America is defined as the center of the nation - the plains, the midwest, and perhaps the Ohio valley. Phoenix is southwest.

Thanks for letting me know that Phoenix is in the "southwest"-- I didn't know that. The term "Middle America" also refers to a social-economic group, not just geography. And look at where so many people here are from-- all the out-of-state license plates-- places like Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois. The white people here are basically living a midwestern culture in a new, desert locale. If you want to see the real southwest, old time cowboy culture, go to New Mexico or west Texas.

Ever seen how many injuries and heat-related incidents occur as a result of hiking Camelback mountain? Even 6 in the morning is plenty warm in June, July, and August with the intensity of the sun; and heat-island effect as a result of your beloved strip-mall, asphalt-laden environment.

Nobody's going to disagree that the summer sucks, and the pollution is bad. And I'll agree with you, Phoenix definitely lacks when it comes to urban parks, rivers, and bicycle/running trails. We're like Los Angeles in that respect. But whereas you have your head stuck in doom and gloom, I was just pointing out that there are in fact some recreational amenities here.

[mhouse2001]

Originally Posted by nevercoldcall

This hate of modern-day America and love for big old cities is most likely due to the fact that all the big cities are filled with and run by left-wing socialists. I'm quite happy now in the OC, "The Most Republican County in America." Nice job Andre on calling out the socialists and their agenda.

All big cities are run by left-wing socialists, eh? Are you saying that big cities are the result of a socialist agenda? WTF? Those big cities are the result of capitalism, the right-wing version of socialism.