In defense of Phoenix (Tempe: environment, credit, skyscraper)

[aj661]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

ASU, and the Phoenix area is whatever you choose to make it. If you want to get real career education there, you can if you make the effort. Let's get real here-- not all the jobs here are call centers and burger flippers. Why does it matter what percentage of the population is blue collar vs. white collar, and the comparative quantity of "career opportunities"? Doesn't it only really matter if there is an opportunity for YOU, if you can find your niche? There are some big corporations here if you would care to look around. There's a heck of a lot of $500,000+ homes going up all over the place-- the money has to come from somewhere. Sorry you haven't been able to find a decent job here-- I guess you should move on then.


Man, you really do need to get the hell outta dodge, you can't even tell I'm joking! I'll be the first one to admit there's a lot of riff-raff, lowlifes, and mean people here-- check out some of my other postings. But you have to be able to laugh at the whole thing too. I think there really is a unique cast of characters that only come together in this concentration here in AZ. Living in Phoenix in 2007 is being part of a vibrant moment in time. Wherever you happen to live, enjoy what your place has to offer. I'll probably be moving in the next several years too.


Thanks for letting me know that Phoenix is in the "southwest"-- I didn't know that. The term "Middle America" also refers to a social-economic group, not just geography. And look at where so many people here are from-- all the out-of-state license plates-- places like Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota, Illinois. The white people here are basically living a midwestern culture in a new, desert locale. If you want to see the real southwest, old time cowboy culture, go to New Mexico or west Texas.



Nobody's going to disagree that the summer sucks, and the pollution is bad. And I'll agree with you, Phoenix definitely lacks when it comes to urban parks, rivers, and bicycle/running trails. We're like Los Angeles in that respect. But whereas you have your head stuck in doom and gloom, I was just pointing out that there are in fact some recreational amenities here.

Damn, you were doing so good until the last paragraph! Repeat after me: I-LOVE-hot-weather! There-is-no-such-thing-as-TOO-HOT!

I drink hot coffee whether it's 28 degrees on a winter's night or 115+ when I'm mowing the lawn at midday in July. One more time: I-LOVE-hot-weather!...

[irwin]

Originally Posted by nevercoldcall

This hate of modern-day America and love for big old cities is most likely due to the fact that all the big cities are filled with and run by left-wing socialists. I'm quite happy now in the OC, "The Most Republican County in America." Nice job Andre on calling out the socialists and their agenda.

Whatever Rush Limbaugh.

Hate to burst your bubble, but California is true blue. The OC may traditionally be Republican, but there are PLENTY of counties in the US that are much more Republican than the OC. This is 2007, not 1977.

[moose168]

Originally Posted by aj661

Moose, I admire what you're doing for your Mother. We provided 24/7 care for mine for her last 5 years due to Alzheimer's. I had several people say they couldn't do it and asked how we did. My response was always, "How could I not?"

Thank you for the admiration.
As much as I've been devoted to my career and lifestyle, I also feel it's my duty to be devoted to my family. My parents provided me with everything I needed as a kid, even though they weren't filthy-rich. I feel it's every grown child's duty to help his or her parents when they need it.

Please try to take this in the context intended. It sounds like life is miserable for you here. Maybe you should reconsider taking your Mom back to CA with you. If she's a shut in, she might adapt better than you think.

That's what I posted in the other topic about Phoenix not being very progressive. After I get her house fixed up, I will put it on the market; then I will definitely take her back with me to northern Cali. She agreed to it, but reluctantly.
I used to love Phoenix when it was smaller and slower-paced. It was friendlier, and the lack of culture or nightlife way back when didn't bother me because a small city didn't need as much of it.
But now that it's 5th or 6th largest in the nation, it seems all the big-city problems moved in - crime, traffic, dirty air - but where are the finer points such as good universities, professional career opportunities, art, culture, good mass-transit, top-notch symphony concerts, a tall skyline, and an active nightlife?

I gotta ask since you brought this up on another thread; What years did you watch Wallace and Ladmo? For a kids show, it was amazing the amount of sharp, political satire they were able to interject. (I once got an autograph from "Hub Cap" at Legend City)

I used to watch it every morning on channel 5 until I was about 18 or 19.:eek So it was mostly during the '60s and '70s. The fact that I watched it through my teen years tells you that it wasn't just a children's show - older kids and some adults really enjoyed it too.
It seemed like every kid in town wanted to be on that show just to get a Ladmo bag! I always watched it for Pat Mc Mahon's various characters he played, and the cartoons.

[moose168]

Originally Posted by vegaspilgrim

Doesn't it only really matter if there is an opportunity for YOU, if you can find your niche? There are some big corporations here if you would care to look around.

Sure there are, but not in my profession.
My career is in the technology sector. I'm not saying that there aren't those types of positions in the Phoenix area; but they don't pay nearly the amount I had made in the Silicon valley. I was offered about $40-thou a year here, compared to more than twice that amount I was earning in the San Jose area.

There's a heck of a lot of $500,000+ homes going up all over the place-- the money has to come from somewhere.

No argument there. Lots of developers, shady real-estate deals, and drug smugglers to buy up those homes.
$500grand is hardly anything. Heck, I sold my home in south San Jose for $650,000 - and I'm just a lowly software designer.

Sorry you haven't been able to find a decent job here-- I guess you should move on then.

I've already taken that advice long before you gave it.
The only reason I moved back to Arizona was my elderly mother is unable to take care of herself anymore. She lives in an older home that needs repair, and I'm attempting to help as much as I can before I put it on the market. After everything is all said and done, I'm moving back to California and taking her with me.

[Andre5140]

Originally Posted by irwin

Whatever Rush Limbaugh.

Hate to burst your bubble, but California is true blue. The OC may traditionally be Republican, but there are PLENTY of counties in the US that are much more Republican than the OC. This is 2007, not 1977.

I think nevercoldcall meant that it is the most republican based on its density of residents and/or percentage who are conservative.

Again....who cares if California is blue or not. LIVE WHEREVER YOU WANT.

Besides, I don't think being blue is anything to be bragging about right now. Thanks to my wonderful US Senators and even the state governor, my home state now ranks 50th for economic development and job growth. Senator Debbie Stabenow poo-pooed big pharmaceutical and now 4000 Pfizer jobs are leaving Michigan. Now she is begging them to stay as their plant is slowly emptying out. Everyone was offered a job elsewhere in the country. Sen. Carl Levin is rooting for America to lose in Iraq. Go ahead and hate the war...I do....but support the troops and the mission instead of you pitiful political career. And Gov. Granholm kisses so many fat, overpaid UAW workers butts that we now are trying to be isolationist rather than competing. Even Katrina-ravaged Louisiana has a brighter economic future!

Places like Arizona, Nevada, OC and San Diego are able to mitigate the machine politics of the left AND right. Don't tell me warm weather is the only reason these are the fastest growing places in the country

[Cj81]

That's what I posted in the other topic about Phoenix not being very progressive. After I get her house fixed up, I will put it on the market; then I will definitely take her back with me to northern Cali. She agreed to it, but reluctantly.
I used to love Phoenix when it was smaller and slower-paced. It was friendlier, and the lack of culture or nightlife way back when didn't bother me because a small city didn't need as much of it.
But now that it's 5th or 6th largest in the nation, it seems all the big-city problems moved in - crime, traffic, dirty air - but where are the finer points such as good universities, professional career opportunities, art, culture, good mass-transit, top-notch symphony concerts, a tall skyline, and an active nightlife?

Ok Moose168, since you are the biggest "Phoenix hater" I have run into yet, I was just going to fill you in a bit!. But I think you should try to listen with an open mind because you seem like you really just don't know Phoenix anymore. This is probably one of the most dynamic cities in the world and if you leave for 3 years and come back- its different! I mean I most big cities don't change, they are very stagnate in development, Phoenix is the opposite. Now, no offense, but you seem a bit snobby when you talk about Phoenix, so I assume that you just don't know any better. So in case you don't know here are some answers for your questions.

Good Universities well we still have Arizona State University and most people consider ASU to be a good university. ASU just expanded its campus to downtown Phoenix as well. And ASU attracts many top honors students!
http://www.asu.edu/news/stories/2007...itscholars.htm

ASU/UofA medical school downtown Phoenix, People are keeping thier eyes on this one.
http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/150573

For professional career oportunities, I am not going to get into that, Phoenix has a very strong job market and thats no secret.

Art and Culture - well first of all there are many museums in Phoenix
http://www.phxart.org/
http://www.heard.org
http://www.smoca.org/
http://asuartmuseum.asu.edu/
http://www.wvam.org/

There are also many art galleries, which I prefer!
http://www.artlinkphoenix.com/
http://www.rooseveltrow.org/
you can read about First Fridays downtown on the artlink website, its really a great event. It attracts around 10,000 people downtown on the first friday of the month. I think you should head down for the next one.
Scottsdale also has open galleries in Old Town on the first Thursdays of the month.

Mass transit, other than busses we don't have much yet, But the Valley Light Rail is under construction right now, Running in less than 2 years.
http://www.valleymetro.org/METRO_light_rail/

As for the skyline and nightlife, well thats also in the works, here is a list of some projects that are under construction in Phoenix and Tempe
http://www.44monroe.com/
http://www.summitcoppersquare.com/
http://www.centerpointaz.com/
http://comingsoon.starwoodhotels.com/sheraton_phoenix/
http://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/CIVPLAZA/expansn.html
http://www.haydenferrylakeside.com/welcome.htm

And this is a list of projects in the development phases, some are further along than others.
http://www.mosaictempe.com/
http://www.downtownphxrising.org/
http://www.universitysquaretempe.com/index.shtml
http://copperpointeaz.com/
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0314biz-condos0314.html (broken link)
http://www.campusedgelofts.com/assets/pdfs/campusedge.pdf (broken link)
http://www.constellationproperty.com/tempe/

To name a few, there are several more, So as you can see we are still building our skyline, we havn't even had 100 years to do so, so I think we can cutt Phoenix some slack on that! Places like NYC and Chicago have been around a lot longer. So I have shown you the way and now all you have to do is get out and experience this city. Maybe I will see you at First Fridays

[Andre5140]

Originally Posted by Cj81

To name a few, there are several more, So as you can see we are still building our skyline, we haven't even had 100 years to do so, so I think we can cut Phoenix some slack on that! Places like NYC and Chicago have been around a lot longer. So I have shown you the way and now all you have to do is get out and experience this city. Maybe I will see you at First Fridays

Other than the post that got this thread started, I'd have to say this is perhaps the best post here due to its wealth of easy-to-access resources. CJ: you posted in another thread some great pro-downtown pictures. Are you on city council or something??

Moose: I'm sure you make some valid points and kudos for taking care of your ailing mom but perhaps you were just spoiled by northern California? SF is a great city...as are many large cities on the west coast. CJ's point (like most of the people's on this thread) is that Phoenix is a new city.

If you want to bash the lack of transit, come visit Detroit! We have 1 million in the downtown and 4 million in the metro area and 2 bus systems that refuse to merge or even care about the progress of transit. Rail from downtown to the airport? Our illustrious governor and city mayor says, "That requires a 1.2 BILLION dollar study." Ugh...the Motor City is killing herself. I have worked in transit for 5 years and can honestly say that of all the cities I have studied, only Washington DC has made a stronger push than Phoenix for mass transit. The Valley Metro tries hard to offer timely and efficient service while the residents continually support transit funding. (Ahem, what say you, Scottsdale?!)

Light rail is not just a cliché....it really does hold the key to a vibrant downtown. Ask the folks of Bethesda, Maryland or the residents of Downtown DC Northeast. It takes time but progress is sure.

Moose, as for your earlier complaint of chain retail and restaurants, I also detest chains (but a chipotle blue cheese burger and presidenté margarita at Chilis is GREAT once in a while). The fact is, we need more critical mass (density) in order to allow local places to become profitable. Light rail...a new biomedical center...ASU downtown campus...they're all great starts.

[Cj81]

No city council yet! I am just a big supporter of the downtown growth. I honestly was considering moving away from Phoenix and still might. I love everything about this city except the lack of an urban core. I just need a more stimulating place that offers a 24/7 environment. So I am still thinking of moving but with all of the development happening its going to be really hard to leave. I know downtown Phoenix will be awesome someday but it could be 10 years before that happens. So I will probably stick around for another 3-4 years and then decide once light rail is up etc... I just wanted to point out that Phoenix does have a lot to offer, there is plenty to do here and the art scene is amazing and still growing. Some people just won't listen on this site, so I figure we should just lay down the facts, the sources and the truth. If they have all of that and still think Phoenix has nothing to offer them, then Phoenix will never have anything to offer them and they should really just move on, quietly.... and also without insulting and offending the entire city.

[mhouse2001]

Both San Diego and Denver have begun redeveloping their downtown cores which were abandoned while the suburban fringe blossomed. Downtown San Diego is delightful in my opinion as I used to live up the hill in Hillcrest for 9 years. Now, Phoenix is beginning to do the same thing. I bought downtown in 1987 and watched as the museums were built across the street and the former BOB rose like a behemoth to the south. I still needed to go up to McDowell (and in the late 80s all the way up to Bethany Home!) to get to a grocery store. When Phoenix FINALLY builds the things people need in their daily activities downtown, it will surely blossom. It's a pity that so much is in the suburbs. I mean, there's no Acura dealership except way up on Bell Road, and then there's two of them! Grocery stores are profoundly lacking in the central city. When they built a Ralph's grocery store in downtown San Diego, that's when it took off in my opinion. Right now, people simply don't want to live in downtown Phoenix. It has improved somewhat with more nightlife and the sporting venues did bring in the masses, but people still want the suburban lifestyle. They can't get that kind of lifestyle downtown. Is what draws people to Phoenix the idea that it ISN'T a city in the classic sense? When is a two-hour commute enough to abandon exurbia for some meaningful social interaction on downtown sidewalks? I hope it's soon. Then the complaints that Phoenix doesn't offer much as a classic city will wane and we'll finally gain our spot on the world map.

[moose168]

Originally Posted by Cj81

For professional career oportunities, I am not going to get into that, Phoenix has a very strong job market and thats no secret.

Why, yes! Lots of jobs to offer here - I won't argue with that.
You can make $35,000 a year being a unit manager at a call center. Big whoopie! If that's not your thing, you can be a tech-support representative for $28,000 a year to start. I hear Mc Donalds, Circle K, and Wal-Mart are always hiring too.

Art and Culture - well first of all there are many museums in Phoenix
http://www.phxart.org/
http://www.heard.org
http://www.smoca.org/
http://asuartmuseum.asu.edu/
http://www.wvam.org/

Been to the Heard and the art museum - not bad facilities. However, you could have heard a pin drop inside both museums. Where are all the people? Oh yes - at the ostrich festival, Rawhide, shopping malls, or hiking Camelback mountain and falling off rocks.

There are also many art galleries, which I prefer!
http://www.artlinkphoenix.com/
http://www.rooseveltrow.org/
you can read about First Fridays downtown on the artlink website, its really a great event. It attracts around 10,000 people downtown on the first friday of the month. I think you should head down for the next one.
Scottsdale also has open galleries in Old Town on the first Thursdays of the month.

I will have to check those out. That is very helpful.

As for the skyline and nightlife, well thats also in the works, here is a list of some projects that are under construction in Phoenix and Tempe
http://www.44monroe.com/
http://www.summitcoppersquare.com/
http://www.centerpointaz.com/
http://comingsoon.starwoodhotels.com/sheraton_phoenix/
http://www.ci.phoenix.az.us/CIVPLAZA/expansn.html
http://www.haydenferrylakeside.com/welcome.htm

And this is a list of projects in the development phases, some are further along than others.
http://www.mosaictempe.com/
http://www.downtownphxrising.org/
http://www.universitysquaretempe.com/index.shtml
http://copperpointeaz.com/
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/0314biz-condos0314.html (broken link)
http://www.campusedgelofts.com/asset...campusedge.pdf
http://www.constellationproperty.com/tempe/

To name a few, there are several more, So as you can see we are still building our skyline, we havn't even had 100 years to do so, so I think we can cutt Phoenix some slack on that!

Honestly, how many of those projects that are not under construction will ever become reality?
Seems as though every time there's a new skyscraper in the plans, it's delayed or scrapped because of all the opposition. Didn't you read about all the protests over the proposed city scape towers, and the W hotel? The latter was supposed to have ground-breaking last year, but it's been delayed due to another legal battle.
That's what I can't understand - there seems to be no protest or opposition over strip malls and stucco suburbs mushrooming all over the place; but trying to develop the urban core is big talk, and little is accomplished because of so many barriers.
I would really like to stick around to see if downtown actually becomes a world-class attraction; but I have my career and mother to think about 1st. Phoenix may be my hometown, but northern Cali is where my heart is now.