In defense of Phoenix (Mesa, Scottsdale: environment, highrise, luxury)

[Andre5140]

Originally Posted by moose168

I would really like to stick around to see if downtown actually becomes a world-class attraction; but I have my career and mother to think about 1st. Phoenix may be my hometown, but northern Cali is where my heart is now.

Haven't you left town yet?

[Cj81]

Honestly, how many of those projects that are not under construction will ever become reality?
Seems as though every time there's a new skyscraper in the plans, it's delayed or scrapped because of all the opposition. Didn't you read about all the protests over the proposed city scape towers, and the W hotel? The latter was supposed to have ground-breaking last year, but it's been delayed due to another legal battle.
That's what I can't understand - there seems to be no protest or opposition over strip malls and stucco suburbs mushrooming all over the place; but trying to develop the urban core is big talk, and little is accomplished because of so many barriers.
I would really like to stick around to see if downtown actually becomes a world-class attraction; but I have my career and mother to think about 1st. Phoenix may be my hometown, but northern Cali is where my heart is now.

Well the Cityscapes project was having isssues with the whole Patriots Park debate, but they won last month and the project has been approved. I think that project will happen very soon! The W hotel project is being held up in court due to a historic preservation issue. The developer wants to baisically tear down the old Sun Merchantile building for condos and the opposition wants them to leave it alone. I think they wanted to pretty much tear the entire building down except for the front facade. And they are calling that historic preservation and adaptive re-use. lol Anyway, the project should go forward in some form in the near future. I understand where you are coming from though, maybe I just want downtown to succeed so much that I am setting myself up for a hard fall. I really love Phoenix but I also desire an urban environment where I can walk places. I hate driving and dealing with traffic. For that reason I may have to move from Phoenix, but I hope not, I hope downtown happens this time. It will happen if it has the support of the people. I hope you check out first fridays, its a lot of fun, especially if you like art. My guess is that half the people that attend don't even enter the galleries, they just go for the street scene. I see it as a sign of life downtown, and a sign that the people desire and urban experience. Its one reason I am so optimistic about downtown development.

[moose168]

I'd like to think downtown will someday be a destination which will give Phoenicians bragging rights.
However, I've heard that song and dance before. In the '70s when a few skycrapers were built and the Hyatt went in with the revolving restaurant, people thought that would bring life to downtown - it didn't. When I was in Cali, I read all about the Mercado, Arizona Center, and a pro-baseball team with a ballpark coming to the central city. People were sure those amenities would bring life to downtown - it didn't.
I suppose part of the reason is most everyone actually likes the stucco suburb feel of strip malls, cookie-cutter subdivisions, and little in the way of a true community.
Cheap labor, cheap housing, and a car-driven culture. You get what you ask for - and pay for!

[newportbeachsmostwanted]

Originally Posted by mhouse2001

Finally, I'm behind you 100% moose168 on the issue of these strip malls subtracting from downtown. A few years back, Orange County CA was regarded as the best place to live in America. You couldn't pay me enough to live there. Why? Because it has no center, no downtown, nothing to define itself in my opinion. There's no there there, to use that term. Parts of it ARE VERY NICE INDEED, but without a downtown, it doesn't serve a purpose for me.
I

That's sounds pretty materialistic. Human beings do not need tall buildings in order to function. What exists in a "downtown" beside problems? Traffic, parking problems, homeless, crime, etc.. (please explain) If I want human interaction, I look in safe, well-planned, and secure areas.. (parks, coffee shops, library, neighborhoods..) The 20th cent. grid plan is a horrible model for family-friendly interaction and a victory for the poor and criminal-minded.


With strip malls, you get front row parking, you get accesibilty, you get proximity, safety, private security.. IMHO, the WHOLE urban living thing is a liberal scheme tying into the whole global warming drama..

[Andre5140]

Originally Posted by newportbeachsmostwanted

That's sounds pretty materialistic. Human beings do not need tall buildings in order to function. What exists in a "downtown" beside problems? Traffic, parking problems, homeless, crime, etc.. (please explain) If I want human interaction, I look in safe, well-planned, and secure areas.. (parks, coffee shops, library, neighborhoods..) The 20th cent. grid plan is a horrible model for family-friendly interaction and a victory for the poor and criminal-minded.


With strip malls, you get front row parking, you get accesibilty, you get proximity, safety, private security.. IMHO, the WHOLE urban living thing is a liberal scheme tying into the whole global warming drama..

What a fabulous post! Amen, newportbeachmostwanted.

In fairness, we have such a great country that offers sooooo many diverse living options, it is ashame we have to argue about how cities "should" be rather than appreciating each for what they are. If you do not like sprawl, you can leave. If you hate crime and congestion, you can leave.

So newportbeachmostwanted, I just have one question for you: can I trade you some of these ugly, bright, mercury-filled light bulbs for some of your carbon credits? My truck is thirsty and Al Gore has been calling.

[irwin]

Originally Posted by newportbeachsmostwanted

That's sounds pretty materialistic. Human beings do not need tall buildings in order to function. What exists in a "downtown" beside problems? Traffic, parking problems, homeless, crime, etc.. (please explain) If I want human interaction, I look in safe, well-planned, and secure areas.. (parks, coffee shops, library, neighborhoods..) The 20th cent. grid plan is a horrible model for family-friendly interaction and a victory for the poor and criminal-minded.


With strip malls, you get front row parking, you get accesibilty, you get proximity, safety, private security.. IMHO, the WHOLE urban living thing is a liberal scheme tying into the whole global warming drama..

If this is your way of thinking, you will love Phoenix. This place is the strip-mall, chain-store center of the world. Lots of wonderful Taco Bell architecture to keep you occupied while you drive your gas guzzler around shopping at Walmart and getting your fast food to make your rear end get bigger. Wonderful life.

[Cj81]

That's sounds pretty materialistic. Human beings do not need tall buildings in order to function. What exists in a "downtown" beside problems? Traffic, parking problems, homeless, crime, etc.. (please explain) If I want human interaction, I look in safe, well-planned, and secure areas.. (parks, coffee shops, library, neighborhoods..) The 20th cent. grid plan is a horrible model for family-friendly interaction and a victory for the poor and criminal-minded.


With strip malls, you get front row parking, you get accesibilty, you get proximity, safety, private security.. IMHO, the WHOLE urban living thing is a liberal scheme tying into the whole global warming drama..

I do love tall buildings but I was not suggesting that we "need" them. The one thing we do need downtown is density. Increasing the density will bring the streets to life and then YOU will want to go to the coffee shops, library and neighborhoods that are downtown. I think most people would prefer to go to a coffee shop that is in a vibrant neighborhood rather than the Starbucks inside your local grocery store. Right? Look at places like Kierland, they are mixed use and people love them. Downtown will be one giant mixed use development where people are walking from home to coffee shops and to the library, maybe jumping on the light rail to go to Tempe for dinner. I am talking about a pedestrian neighborhood, so the only people that have to deal with traffic are the commuters from the burbs. Its a lifestyle that some of us prefer over sitting in traffic waisting our lives away only to get to our dull, lifeless, tract home that looks exactly like the neighbors. This has absolutly nothing to do with global warming, I really don't know where you get that idea. True however, urban living is far more sustainable than suburban sprawl. The good thing is that you don't have to live downtown and you don't even have to like it. In fact you probably don't ever have to even go there. Of course what you obviously don't realize is that out there in the burbs you have all of the problems you find downtown without any of the benefits. You have crime traffic and parking issues. How do criminals and poor peole benefit from the grid layout of the city?? If anything, cars benefit from it while pedestrians are the one's who are really losing out. Ever tried to cross one of those super streets? I would say you have about a 50% chance of getting run over! Anyway , you obviously have never experienced a vibrant urban center, so there is really no point for me to keep going. The good news for you is that there are enough strip malls in Phoenix for all you suburban living lovers to shop at for the rest of your lives.

[Andre5140]

Even though I agree with philosophically and ideologically with newportbeachsmostwanted, CJ's post comes out as the level-headed one yet again.

Based on what I know of Metro Phoenix, there needs to be a balance: support the sprawl that already exists while also creating a destination in downtown Phoenix. If we support too much of one lifestyle in this area, the other will hollow out.

There is no need we cannot have both!

[Caliguy2007]

1) The thing I liked about The Phoenix Valley was the Gorgeous Views of the surrounding Mountains and Desert.

2) More Affordable than CA.

3) You guys also have a rather Attractive and Well Maintained Freeway System,so it was a pleasure to be on the Freeways there..Your Freeways are Well Lit and the Freeway Signs are readable.

4) Everything was conveniently located right off the Freeways,so we never got lost when we needed anything.

5) The Phoenix Valley gives the impression of a Clean City,especially since most of the construction there is New.

6) Beautiful Xeriscape Landscaping.

7) Very Pro-Development...Here in CA it takes forever just for a Wal-Mart to be approved.LOL

[nevercoldcall]

Originally Posted by Caliguy29

7) Very Pro-Development...Here in CA it takes forever just for a Wal-Mart to be approved.LOL

If you actually believe that then I've got some nice bridges for sale for you. Arizona is the most anti-development place in the world. Why do you think there are no tall buildings and just a bunch of drab 2-story offices and strip malls? Because EVERY TIME something new is proposed, it gets shot down!! Even Donald Trump got shot down when he proposed a new Trump International hotel, something that would have actually brought class to the city!

One of my reasons for leaving there for OC was how disgusted I got with AZ's anti-development fanaticism. Now when I drive to my office in Irvine I get a wonderful feeling seeing actual buildings around. Irvine is just a suburb and it has more tall buildings than all of downtown Phoenix ... that's pathetic.