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We all saw this coming but as a hockey fan, I'm truly saddened by this. Nothing against the west side, but the move to Glendale truly killed this team because most of the valley's hockey fans live in the east valley and it was too difficult to drive all the way to the west side during week days. Football works on the west side because the games are played on Sundays so we don't mind driving because we are not working. However, it was just impractical to drive from Chandler to Glendale during rush hour just to make it to a hockey game. I really blame the Scottsdale city council. If they built the hockey stadium at Los Arcos, the team would probably still be here. Now look at Los Arcos. It's become a blight and an area of crime that brings down south Scottsdale. Imagine if there had been a first class hockey stadium. That area is much more dense in terms of population due to its proximity to downtown Phoenix and Tempe and it would have attracted more fans. Unfortunately, we will probably never again get a hockey team in my lifetime because this franchise failed.
SkySong is an area of crime?? I know it's not all developed yet, but I must be reading the wrong crime logs. I do agree that the team would have done better there. But, that would not have made them a better team-- the people making decisions about players, coaches, would still be the same. Historically, we don't back loser teams around here.
Hopefully they can figure out a way to keep the Coyotes here, if only for the impact the departure would have on Glendale (I agree we'll never see an NHL franchise again if they leave, but don't care that much) The NHL says THEY are in charge of the team now, and they want it to stay here. So, we will see.
The real losers here are the folks in Glendale, who ponied up BIG bucks for the arena, thought they had a lease that would tie the Coyotes in there for 30 years, and didn't have to pay staff to run the arena, as the Coyotes did that.
SkySong is an area of crime?? I know it's not all developed yet, but I must be reading the wrong crime logs. I do agree that the team would have done better there. But, that would not have made them a better team-- the people making decisions about players, coaches, would still be the same. Historically, we don't back loser teams around here.
Hopefully they can figure out a way to keep the Coyotes here, if only for the impact the departure would have on Glendale (I agree we'll never see an NHL franchise again if they leave, but don't care that much) The NHL says THEY are in charge of the team now, and they want it to stay here. So, we will see.
The real losers here are the folks in Glendale, who ponied up BIG bucks for the arena, thought they had a lease that would tie the Coyotes in there for 30 years, and didn't have to pay staff to run the arena, as the Coyotes did that.
Have you driven by SkySong at night? It's doesn't much to figure out what is going on there when the lot is empty and you see two random cars pull up to one another and they get out and "talk" to one another.
It would have made the team better because the Coyotes performance is largely tied to its lack of spending due to the money it loses each year. If they played in Scottsdale and sold more tickets, they could have invested more into its players. This is why the Cardinals improved when moving to the new stadium, due to the increased revenue the owners received from increased ticket sales, parking and concessions, they were able to keep many of its star players and hire a reputable coaching staff (assistants not just head coach).
The NHL has not stated they want the team to stay here. Why would they? They team loses millions each year and the NHL has had to subsize some of their costs. If the team relocate to Ontario and make money, why would the NHL want the team to remain in Phoenix? The Coyotes are gone. The only way they can stay here is if another buyer offers more than the CEO of Blackberry (name??) AND chooses to keep them in Phoenix but why would a person buy the Coyotes and keep them in Phoenix if they have proven to be a money loser? And the team isn't cheap. It's being sold for upwards of 200 million dollars. It's a done deal my friend. They are gone.
I agree, Glendale is losing out big time. I do feel bad for them. At the same time, it didn't take a genius to figure out that moving the team to the west side was going to have negative ramifications. You can't move a venue in which games are played on a nightly basis to an suburb with a low population density. Forget the east vs west side. The same would happen if you moved the team to Superstition Springs in Mesa or Ocotillo in Chandler. You have to keep a team like that near the masses so that people can go after work etc. Like I said, football is different because they play only 8 games a year and they are on Sunday.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 05-06-2009 at 11:15 AM..
We all saw this coming but as a hockey fan, I'm truly saddened by this. Nothing against the west side, but the move to Glendale truly killed this team because most of the valley's hockey fans live in the east valley and it was too difficult to drive all the way to the west side during week days. Football works on the west side because the games are played on Sundays so we don't mind driving because we are not working. However, it was just impractical to drive from Chandler to Glendale during rush hour just to make it to a hockey game. I really blame the Scottsdale city council. If they built the hockey stadium at Los Arcos, the team would probably still be here. Now look at Los Arcos. It's become a blight and an area of crime that brings down south Scottsdale. Imagine if there had been a first class hockey stadium. That area is much more dense in terms of population due to its proximity to downtown Phoenix and Tempe and it would have attracted more fans. Unfortunately, we will probably never again get a hockey team in my lifetime because this franchise failed.
I disagree. Scottsdale was right not to subsidize an arena at Los Arcos. Glendale was willing to do so and now are about to get screwed to the tune of about $200 million. Meanwhile the area around Los Arcos is ripe for mixed use redevelopment and infill. SkySong is only a couple of years into what will be a multi-building modern research park. There were some other good developments being planned before the real estate credit market froze - and I would expect things to pick up again. Scottsdale is pretty much built out up north, and the proximity of S. Scottsdale to Tempe and PHX puts it in a great position for future infill. What's more, there's no proof that an arena does much for nearby neighborhoods. Yeah it would be great to have a condo overlooking Coors Field, Wrigley, PetCo is San Diego - open air facilities. But the area around Staples (home to 2 NBA teams, NHL, Indoor football, etc.) is pretty ghetto. I don't see people wanting to live near most indoor arenas, which usually sit in the middle of massive parking lots that are empty most of the time. I used to work next to Staples, which probably has more events all year than any other venue in the country, and the main economic activity it broght to the local area was parking $$$. Otherwise, the restaurants and bars would be hopping some nights and completely dead if not closed the rest of the time. That's fine if it's in an industrial area (near the airport would have been a prime location), but not so good in a primarily residential area.
I don't really care about hockey, but if this occurs, it shows why Glendale's current proposal to route light rail up to Westgate instead of Downtown Glendale is flawed. A walkable district like Downtown Glendale with interesting shops, festivals, events, etc. is timeless and light rail will help anchor it. Westgate, on the other hand, was built just years ago out of the cotton fields and is dependent on sports franchises that may leave with little notice, creating the prospect of empty trains running to empty arenas. I hope Glendale sees this as a wake-up call to stay with the prior plan to run light rail to its Downtown rather than spending a lot more money for a train to outlying sports facilities.
Of course, rail opponents will claim that Glendale doesn't need no stinkin' "trolley," but I'm not going to waste my time on that. My point is that sports franchises are fickle, and we should not base major infrastructure decisions on their locations. Rail lines, roads, etc. should serve existing neighborhoods and business districts before they serve outlying sports and entertainment venues.
I'm not a city planner or sports franchise owner, hardly qualified to make a decision. But I'll give ya my opinion anyway.
I'd prefer the sports teams to be downtown. It seems that the games would draw thousands all of the time. The Coyotes haven't had success here and that's a good reason why they don't make any money.
Still, they would've been a better draw downtown, although Westgate is a pretty cool place.
Cases in point:
The Detroit Lions left Pontiac some years ago and built a new stadium in downtown Detroit. We all know how terrible they are, yet they pack 'em in every Sunday.
The Red Wings were awful during the 1980's, yet they packed Joe Louis Arena in downtown Detroit nightly.
Could be that hockey is much more popular there too, You gotta recognize that.
I feel sorry for any fans down in phoenix, the situation is pretty bad.
on the other hand, this league has got to start making money, the rest of league is constantly bailing out teams like the coyotes, its unfortunate but true.
Bottom line, put the teams where they will make money, not where they lose money.
I disagree. Scottsdale was right not to subsidize an arena at Los Arcos. Glendale was willing to do so and now are about to get screwed to the tune of about $200 million. Meanwhile the area around Los Arcos is ripe for mixed use redevelopment and infill. SkySong is only a couple of years into what will be a multi-building modern research park. There were some other good developments being planned before the real estate credit market froze - and I would expect things to pick up again. Scottsdale is pretty much built out up north, and the proximity of S. Scottsdale to Tempe and PHX puts it in a great position for future infill. What's more, there's no proof that an arena does much for nearby neighborhoods. Yeah it would be great to have a condo overlooking Coors Field, Wrigley, PetCo is San Diego - open air facilities. But the area around Staples (home to 2 NBA teams, NHL, Indoor football, etc.) is pretty ghetto. I don't see people wanting to live near most indoor arenas, which usually sit in the middle of massive parking lots that are empty most of the time. I used to work next to Staples, which probably has more events all year than any other venue in the country, and the main economic activity it broght to the local area was parking $$$. Otherwise, the restaurants and bars would be hopping some nights and completely dead if not closed the rest of the time. That's fine if it's in an industrial area (near the airport would have been a prime location), but not so good in a primarily residential area.
You don't think 12-15 thousand people several nights a week wouldn't increase business in Old Town Scottsdale particularly on week nights when it is dead? I would certainly dine at Sting Ray for sushi and then catch a game. Also, you have the proximity to ASU so college students might go to a game and then you have the hardcore fans in the east valley. What about other entertainment venues like concerts and Disney on Ice?
And what is special about Sky Song? When it comes down to it, it's just office space. That's all it is. They are trying to sell it like a research park because it's close to ASU but there is already an ASU research park in South Tempe at the 101 and Elliot. And if any new research park is going to be built, it's going in downtown not Sky Song! The U of A/ASU medical school and the nursing school not to mention hospitals are in downtown. And trust me there is plenty of empty office and retail space in nice areas of the valley. It wouldn't suprise me if those buildings have difficulty finding people to lease space. Furthermore, that area would have been inactive for 10 years by the time Sky Song comes to completion. You don't think 10 years of lost of revenue and development is significant?
You don't think 12-15 thousand people several nights a week wouldn't increase business in Old Town Scottsdale particularly on week nights when it is dead? I would certainly dine at Sting Ray for sushi and then catch a game. Also, you have the proximity to ASU so college students might go to a game and then you have the hardcore fans in the east valley. What about other entertainment venues like concerts and Disney on Ice?
And what is special about Sky Song? When it comes down to it, it's just office space. That's all it is. They are trying to sell it like a research park because it's close to ASU but there is already an ASU research park in South Tempe at the 101 and Elliot. And if any new research park is going to be built, it's going in downtown not Sky Song! The U of A/ASU medical school and the nursing school not to mention hospitals are in downtown. And trust me there is plenty of empty office and retail space in nice areas of the valley. It wouldn't suprise me if those buildings have difficulty finding people to lease space. Furthermore, that area would have been inactive for 10 years by the time Sky Song comes to completion. You don't think 10 years of lost of revenue and development is significant?
It's a joint venture with ASU, so the school has a significant interest in developing it. And there are lots of other things the city can be doing to encourage redevelopment.
But here's the real bottom line: Scottsdale never refused to allow the owners to build there. They could have built the arena and just like most businesses, assuming full control of the facility. These are billionaires who are used to putting together billion dollar deals, and could have funded it via investors or their own money. Instead, they wanted the city to fund it. Glendale jumped in and offered a sweet deal - they'd finance it and assume the risk. So now we have Jerry Moyes losing his $200 million stake in the team. It'll likely be sold to a guy in Canada who'll move it there. And Glendale is now upside down with a $180 million dollar mortgage and no tenant. Glendale is already under significant financial pressure due to Westgate's delays and underperformance, so they are going to be in big trouble for a long time if this scenario plays out.
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