Light Rail (Phoenix, Mesa, Chandler: high school, restaurants, costs)

[observer53]

Originally Posted by krock1dk

I've ridden the failrail er. lightrail several times. Your experience depends on where yer going. Not all stops have an adequet number of parking spaces, and some have none at all. The train goes really slow and must STOP FOR TRAFFIC LIGHTS. The lightrail is really a glorified form of an urban choochoo in my opinion. Depending on your destination, I've found its often easier and quicker to drive. I dont feel that the lightrail has been convenient or efficient. Oh yes, and there's no restrooms at the stops either. The developers didnt put enough thought into the rail B4 building it.

Agree with silverbear. Restrooms at the stops? Never in the plan, nor should they have been.

When did you move back here? In an old post from January '07, you told someone you "used to" live here, and ranted about how awful it is here. Sometimes it's hard to tell who actually lives here and who doesn't.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Once again, you are suggesting buses can replace rail in Phoenix, yet your arguments come from cities that use buses in association with rail: Denver, Paris, and London. Few major cities rely on buses alone because buses are best suited to short neighborhood trips designed to bring people to rail stations for longer journeys. Under Transit 2000 and Proposition 400, there has been an enormous net increase in bus service despite recent cuts. That demonstrates a sensible approach of seeing rail, bus, and roads as three essential components of an integrated transportation strategy.

As for those sprawlish develoments like Westgate, CityNorth, Tempe Marketplace, etc. -- I opposed subsidies for all of them. Nevertheless, the mistakes made by city governments in fighting sales tax wars with their neighbors do not invalidate all decisions made by those city governments. They've been foolish in trying to subsidize retail, but have been wise in embracing rail transit. The record is mixed, as with almost all political situations. The remedy is not to reject rail transit, but instead to reject subsidies for development that is designed in an autocentric manner away from transit infrastructure.

In defense of Tempe Marketplace; it is one short bus (or Tempe Orbit) ride from several LR stations here in Tempe

[HX_Guy]

And in related news...

Light rail will run later on weekend nights

Mike Branom, Tribune

May 20, 2009 - 2:10PM

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Light rail soon will be riding deep into the night.

Metro's board of directors unanimously voted on Wednesday to extend the system's operating hours on weekends.

Come July, on Friday and Saturday nights service will continue at 20-minute intervals until shortly after 2 a.m., when the last complete eastbound train passes through downtown Phoenix and the last full westbound train leaves Tempe's Mill Avenue.

Since the system opened in December, trains have stopped running at 11 p.m.

Metro estimates increasing its service times by six hours a week will increase its annual operating costs by $254,500. This financial impact will be borne by the cities where light rail runs; Mesa's share would be $12,725.

There also may be a financial impact from the Americans with Disabilities Act, Metro officials said.

Complimentary ADA service must provided along the rail line, but the price tag for doing so is not yet known. Metro estimates range between $30,000 and $50,000.

Board member Glenn Kephart, Tempe's public works manager, said extending weekend service hours could pay off with increased ridership, as people taking advantage of the later service may be more willing to ride the train other times.

[krispydude]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

And in related news...

Good stuff!

[azriverfan.]

Honestly, what is the point of this thread? I'm in favor of the light rail and was always a strong proponent of the light rail. I used to argue with detractors back then. However, I'm just glad it's been successful and we have it. I could care less who was wrong. And the people who were wrong know they were wrong. I don't need to rub it in their face. My focus is on the success of the light rail and the benefits it brings.

[krispydude]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Of all the arguments against light rail, weather is probably the weakest. People who choose to use rail transit do so during Minneapolis cold, Houston humidity, Portland rain, etc. They'll do the same here with regard to summer heat. Sure, there will be a seasonal dip due to more people on vacation and related factors, but I predict overall ridership will remain high.

As for "the way we are built here," the cliche about being too spread out for rail transit is not substantially more true here than elsewhere in the country. Most metro areas around the country, even the oldest ones like New York and Boston, have multiple business centers and numerous employers in the suburbs. Still, rail transit works for them, just as it is now working for us.

Insane operating prices? I don't see that. In fact, the more miles of track that exist, the cheaper the operating cost is likely to be on a per-passenger basis. Administrative costs to run the system's operating and maintenance facility will be spread over a larger network of track, making the system likely to be more efficient. And, of course, we all know how inexpensive freeway construction is.

Finally, the 11 PM shutdown time is likely to change very soon. A Phoenix City Council subcommittee has approved a plan to extend service until 2 AM on weekend nights, and approval by the full council and the Metro light rail board of directors is likely to follow.

Are you trying to say that NY and Boston are spread out like us? We have a ridiculously light density compared to both those cities. The city of Phoenix has a population density of around 3,000 per sq. mi. NY has 26,000 per sq. mile. That gives NY roughly 8.5 times the riders to fill up the same amount of track needed for a sq. mi. Plus many of those people don't own cars, so they are even more likely to take public transporation. Would you be fine paying $10 each way then to make up the difference?

I'll be honest and say that I don't know the master plan for light rail and I'd like other people to chime in if they know. Is there going to be light rail lines every mile or so, layed out just like our street grid? People that have cars aren't going to want to walk 1-2 miles to get their destination since the light isn't close enough to where they are going. People hardly go outside when it's 110 outside, who's gonna be walking, carrying their groceries? Or is the plan to build out to the all the park and rides and have the rails pick people up there? Or light rail mainly for the Central Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa Area? Goodyear, Avondale, Peoria, Surprise, Tolleson, Buckeye, Laveen, Anthem, North Phoenix, North Scottsdale, Fountain Hills, Chandler, Queen Creek get nothing?

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by krispydude

Are you trying to say that NY and Boston are spread out like us? We have a ridiculously light density compared to both those cities. The city of Phoenix has a population density of around 3,000 per sq. mi. NY has 26,000 per sq. mile. That gives NY roughly 8.5 times the riders to fill up the same amount of track needed for a sq. mi. Plus many of those people don't own cars, so they are even more likely to take public transporation. Would you be fine paying $10 each way then to make up the difference?

I'll be honest and say that I don't know the master plan for light rail and I'd like other people to chime in if they know. Is there going to be light rail lines every mile or so, layed out just like our street grid? People that have cars aren't going to want to walk 1-2 miles to get their destination since the light isn't close enough to where they are going. People hardly go outside when it's 110 outside, who's gonna be walking, carrying their groceries? Or is the plan to build out to the all the park and rides and have the rails pick people up there? Or light rail mainly for the Central Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa Area? Goodyear, Avondale, Peoria, Surprise, Tolleson, Buckeye, Laveen, Anthem, North Phoenix, North Scottsdale, Fountain Hills, Chandler, Queen Creek get nothing?

Well that is why there are park and rides and bus/shuttle services to take people to lightrail station. The theme here is to bring people to the stops and not necessarily walk unless they live along or near the line. There will be a large garage built at Dunlap and 19th Ave when the line is extended that will allow suburbanites to avoid the congested freeways into downtown and Central Ave.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by krispydude

Are you trying to say that NY and Boston are spread out like us? We have a ridiculously light density compared to both those cities. The city of Phoenix has a population density of around 3,000 per sq. mi. NY has 26,000 per sq. mile. That gives NY roughly 8.5 times the riders to fill up the same amount of track needed for a sq. mi. Plus many of those people don't own cars, so they are even more likely to take public transporation. Would you be fine paying $10 each way then to make up the difference?

I'll be honest and say that I don't know the master plan for light rail and I'd like other people to chime in if they know. Is there going to be light rail lines every mile or so, layed out just like our street grid? People that have cars aren't going to want to walk 1-2 miles to get their destination since the light isn't close enough to where they are going. People hardly go outside when it's 110 outside, who's gonna be walking, carrying their groceries? Or is the plan to build out to the all the park and rides and have the rails pick people up there? Or light rail mainly for the Central Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa Area? Goodyear, Avondale, Peoria, Surprise, Tolleson, Buckeye, Laveen, Anthem, North Phoenix, North Scottsdale, Fountain Hills, Chandler, Queen Creek get nothing?

Nope, said nothing of the sort. Obviously East Coast cities have higher densities in their cores, which is why they are a better match for heavy rail with longer trains and more extensive station infrastructure. In Phoenix and other Sunbelt cities, light rail is the better choice. Nevertheless, outside of established urban cores, most Eastern cities sprawl tremendously into multiple counties of suburbs. My point therefore was that even high-density East Coast cities have seen a lot of job sprawl with major corporations putting offices in places like Stamford and White Plains, which are not nearly as well served by public transit as places like Manhattan. Job sprawl is a nationwide disease, but it's no excuse for resisting rail transit. In fact, a recent Brookings Institution report had Phoenix ranked relatively low for job sprawl compared to many other cities, effectively making it a good candidate for expanded commuting options via public transit.

As for the master plan, to expect light rail to reach every remote suburb you have mentioned is unrealistic. Even if funding were available, some of those communities would never consent to having light rail within their borders. Nevertheless, there is a plan to build extensions reaching into other parts of Phoenix and willing suburbs like Tempe, Mesa, and Glendale. Those extensions, coupled with park-and-ride facilities and connecting bus routes, will in time make light rail accessible to an even greater segment of the population.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by azriverfan.

Honestly, what is the point of this thread? I'm in favor of the light rail and was always a strong proponent of the light rail. I used to argue with detractors back then. However, I'm just glad it's been successful and we have it. I could care less who was wrong. And the people who were wrong know they were wrong. I don't need to rub it in their face. My focus is on the success of the light rail and the benefits it brings.

Good attitude. Sometimes I just can't resist a debate with the flat-earthers. I'm not so sure they know they were wrong. Some will go their graves still hating rail in Phoenix. Nevertheless, they are becoming increasingly marginalized in Phoenix, just as they have been in almost every city where rail transit has been implemented. I chime in on these debates when I have the opportunity, but certainly don't lose sleep if I miss one.

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by ArizonaBear

In defense of Tempe Marketplace; it is one short bus (or Tempe Orbit) ride from several LR stations here in Tempe

I know, but I still dislike the place enormously -- too many tacky chain restaurants, bad layout, and unneeded subsidized competition with Mill Avenue and other established commercial districts in Tempe and west Mesa.