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About education, it seems a contradiction to say that an institution is a "diploma mill" and to acknowledge at the same time that it is accredited. Instead of assuming that accreditation is too easy, maybe it's time to reassess stereotypes about non-traditional higher education. It serves a need that traditional universities have not been able to address, and the accreditation is an indication that it does so with a degree of quality. Keep in mind that institutions like University of Phoenix serve a national population, so their impact on the pool of college graduates is felt nationwide, not just in Phoenix.
I'm not proud to call them diploma mills but I personally know too many people who went to these institutions, paid a lot of money and are still jobless and this was during a time when the economy was supposedly strong here. I know so many jobless MBAs from the University of Phoenix and Western International. It's not a contradiction because criteria for getting accredited is low and pretty much any institution can get accredited. I'm sorry but when you can get a Ph.D. on-line in a couple of years, that is a joke. And companies know that's a joke.
I think you are assuming I'm embarrassed by these institutions. I'm not hung up on names. If Western International can get people jobs, then that's great. However, the reality is far different. Many of these schools are essentially scams that make false promises and take advantage of people by telling them what they want to hear namely that they can get a "quality education" in their spare time and do so easily through the internet and other such places. However, when it comes to getting a job, it's a completely different issue. And these institutions have been investigated on Dateline and it shows how these schools mislead candidates. Dateline had a undercover person purposefully fail an admissions test badly. The school made the person repeat it several times until they finally just accepted her. She was not qualified to take certain classes. They interviewed ex-recruiters on these campuses and were told to lie and say anything to recruit people there.
Instead of assuming quality education can't be built here, why don't we aspire for that and do something about it instead of settling on these diploma mills that are are essentially designed to prey on the desperate and make false promises.
I think this article was interesting because it points out what little people know of Phoenix. When someone says there is no culture in Phoenix they are often misinformed as the culture here is presented differently then say Chicago, New York and even Portland! While those cities offer critical mass in density, that mass in Phoenix is spread out much more than in other metros. When you go to New York City you don't have to go to Long Island, White Plains, Newark, Yonkers, etc. to see the amenities of the city.
In Phoenix, the cultural assets are found in Scottsdale, Tempe, Downtown Phoenix, the barrios, gayborhoods, historic districs, etc. While each city, especially Phoenix, is developing a denser core many of the "cool" things to do are still found by car. If the lightrail were connected to Scottsdale and Glendale then a more complete feeling would be found.
However, younger people like myself (moved here in 2005) learned about what is available here and the inclusiveness of the population that is easily overlooked and pick this city over others. The unemployment rate in cities like Portland, Chicago, Seattle, L.A., San Fran, etc. are horrendous in comparison to Phoenix.
Also this metro is becoming well known for international trade, biomedical research and application (hospitals), world renowned schools for important professions (ASU's Walter Cronkite School of Journalism-sixth ranked in the U.S.; ASU's W.P. Carey School of Business, Thunderbird ranked number one in the world; ASU's Nursing program, School of Public Policy, Education, etc. etc. While it is the only major university in Phoenix, other schools have a presence here like the UofA. However, the number of college graduates moving to Phoenix is made up of those moving from regions throughout the U.S. not just Arizona grads, meaning Phoenix is attracting talent and given our low unemployment rate, are finding jobs whereas they are not in the cities long considered "cooler" than Phoenix by the uninformed.
Why not count Grand Canyon? I'm sure the administration there (and the students) would like to know why they don't "count".
How many of those Okla City metro colleges are state funded, and how many are private? (I'm guessing it is a 3/2 split public/private, based only on the names). But more isn't necessarily "better". And I don't think discounting our large community college system as somehow irrelevant to education is correct, either.
I don't know that having a second state university in the Phoenix area would have made that much difference in the quality of education we have here now. It would have made ASU smaller, yes, but beyond that it's hard to say what the effect would have been.
Interestingly, one of the proposals for the West and Polytechnic campuses of ASU is to actually create separate institutions. I'm not sure that's still on the table, but it's an interesting concept.
Grand Canyon doesn't offer full degree programs or offer classes in many majors that are basic to most universities. Although it is growing, it's not really established. It has 1600 total students. There are community colleges here bigger than Grand Canyon! It's one thing to say that Grand Canyon is growing and headed in the right direction and it's another thing to really refer to them as an established and recognized university. Many people in Phoenix do not even know it exists.
OU and UCO are public and the others are private. And what's your point? So what if three of those schools are private. At least their community saw that it was important to create universities. And what do you mean "more" isn't better? I'm sorry but that's a weak statement. You don't think having more universities and options for higher education is a good thing that benefits a city? I don't even think you believe what you just said. The OKC metro also has several community colleges in addition to the aforementioned. You think it's normal that a city this size only has a one university and several community colleges when a city 1/3 the size of Phoenix has so many more universties?
Having more universities in the Phoenix area would have helped the business and development aspect of the city as many local universities provide talent and resources that lead to the formation of companies. It also makes an area more attractive in general as people realize their children have excellent local universities and colleges they can attend. It's similar to the idea of having excellent high schools; having great colleges is also a draw. Furthermore, having universities here allows local companies to recruit more local talent.
Sorry but this is a problem. I know it's easy to contradict what I said because of my tone but I'm just telling it like it is. Anyone who reads my posts know I'm defensive of Phoenix and is very pro-Phoenix so for me to critize something about Phoenix means it's a legitimate complaint. I wouldn't do so if it wasn't true. I'm a huge homer and defend Phoenix in nearly every regard but I try to be objective and the lack of universities is a glaring weakness of this city. Anyway, you are not going to convince me that our dearth of higher level education is acceptable. We need to address it and do something about it rather than get complacent and assume everything is fine.
I don't know much about the ASU east and west campuses other than the fact that they have moved many of their colleges to downtown and in an interview with Michael Crow, he didn't sound confident when asked if the West and East campuses could be possibly closed down permanently due to the lack of funding. Right now, that's the feeling I got.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 05-28-2009 at 05:02 PM..
Grand Canyon doesn't offer full degree programs or offer classes in many majors that are basic to most universities. Although it is growing, it's not really established. They have a wopping 1600 total students! Mesa Community College is bigger than Grand Canyon.
OU and UCO are public. OKCU and OK christian are private. And so what if they are partially publically funded. Shouldn't we have institutions that are partially publicly funded? The OKC metro also has several community colleges in addition the aforementioned. You think it's normal that a city this size only has a one university and several community colleges when a metro area 1/3 the size of Phoenix has so many more higher level schools?
Having more universities in the Phoenix area would have helped the business and development aspect of the city as many local universities provide talent and resources that lead to the formation of companies. It also makes an area more attractive in general as people realize their children have excellent local universities and colleges they can attend. It's similar to the idea of having excellent high schools; having great colleges is also a draw. Furthermore, having universities here allows local companies to recruit more local talent.
Sorry but this is a problem. I know it's easy to contradict what I said because of my tone but I'm just telling it like it is. I'm a huge homer and defend Phoenix in nearly every regard but I try to be objective and the lack of universities is a glaring weakness of this city. I don't think we need to rationalize weak excuses just because you didn't like my tone.
I disagree...having lots of schools turn out graduates is hardly as productive as having a few World Renowned institutions...I've never heard of those schools in Oklahoma nor did I find them on any college ranking for schools of important trades that foster development, research, and application.
If so Philadelphia and Detroit would be in MUCH better shape; same for St. Louis, Washington, D.C., etc. Those metros are experiencing an unprecedented loss in population, high murder/crime rates, and significant loss of high paying jobs. I think quality over quantity is king and Arizona schools, even the MCC schools, get this. The Board of Regents and other college officials are looking into making some MCC schools 4 year degree colleges. Phoenix College fits the bill perfectly. Not only does its campus resemble a small private liberal arts school but it is somewhat centrally located. It is a pretty campus with old historic brick buildings. I think PC can be an incubator for competitive degrees in important fields like health care, business, education, and public policy.
grand canyon is really small - they do have some presence and are growing (especially in online classes) - it's not a bad little school
also places like phoenix college exist, but aren't that super strong
goodyear is trying to attact universities, but university of the incarnate word has backed out of their agreement - mainly because ASU is looking at goodyear as an option for some expansion (how ASU can expand is beyond me)
one of the more interesting things was that goodyear was trying to find a school that would partner with the cancer treatment centers of america facility that was just built - kind of create a harmony between them
i've represented my former company at local college job fairs and it's kind of brutal ........ you can't rely on such a large bulk of imported talent - eventually we have to diversify and grow our own
it's not to say there aren't some good programs - Thunderbird is fantastic, Embry Riddle is fantastic even if it is in prescott, midwestern is OK.........
the whole state of AZ has 24 universities, which includes UofP and WIU (not counting community colleges of which there are 21 more)
the city of philadelphia proper has 17 universities, including mulitple medical schools, law schools, etc ..... they also have 2 more schools that are purely graduate - if you go into the delaware valley you have an additional 21 universities and 3 more graduate programs
there is a lot wrong with the city and it obviously had a jump in development, but in 2005 it had the 4th highest GDP output in the US ......... 30 fortune 1000 companies are HQd there, they have the US HQ for 5 more fortune 1000 international cos, and 8 more fortune 1000 regional centers
they have advantages in that they are proximate to other cities, other universities, well established, etc
a company can move there and the trouble is getting people to want to move to philly, there is a ton of talent in the area though
here people want to live, but the problem is finding enough talent to stock the shelves and having enough confidence to bring your families and your employees families out here
there is a lot of potential though for phoenix - it has a good airport, ease of doing business, easy location to do business from TX west, advantageous taxes and if you have a fixed rate product your expenses will generally be lower here
i hope that we can get there one day - it stinks that the economy is pushing us in the wrong direction though
Grand Canyon College/University has been around a LONG time. I'm not sure what "not established" means; I know that they are going through changes with a change in "ownership". And the size of the college/university doesn't matter too much. My niece goes to a very well respected small college (in another state) that has 1100 students. I don't care how many students a college or university has (including Grand Canyon).... it's the quality of the education that counts. Oklahoma Christian has 2100 students, Oklahoma City University about 3800 (1800 or so undergraduate). We aren't talking about big schools here, although they call themselves "universities". They do offer a lot of degree programs, but they are geared to attracting people seeking a Christian influenced college education. That limits the students they are going to attract, frankly.
Are there articles about the effect the additional schools, even these small ones, has had on the economy/business climate in OKC? I'd be interested to see what does happen.
It might have been great to have another uniiversity here, public or private, but why that didn't happen probably has a ton of answers. If the other campuses at ASU are ultimately broken off into smaller, more accessible (in terms of cost) but still quality schools, as has been suggested, that would be as close as we will get to what you are talking about. I don't see another more traditional private college/university on the horizon.
The rapid expansion of the degree programs at ASU means that it offers as many degree programs as multiple universities might have elsewhere. The school is attracting really fine students, both instate and out of state. It's been my privilege to meet some of them. I guess I don't see the fact that we don't have another one or two 2000-4000 student "universities" (or colleges) as the glaring deficiency you do.
But using Dept. of Education money and Pell Grants to train less fortunate or talented students how to see a world where striving to be better than that Dairy Queen job is a noble goal. I, too, have been one to look at the Grand Canyons and Bryman Schools, and U of PHX with derision, but they do serve a goal: train marketable skills, and make a profit.
Graduates of liberal arts schools do more than sit in the forest and philosophize and see the world from a different perspective. The reality is many of the best liberal arts colleges provide opportunities for students to pursue graduate education in medicine, business, law, engineering etc. Furthermore, what proof do you have that graduates from these trade schools like Western International are getting the jobs they paid these schools to acquire? That is just an assumption you are making. They can state whatever claims they want on TV about their graduates earning a part time degree after school and then getting a 50K dollar job but that's wishful thinking. I know many that walk out of these schools in no better shape except now they are in debt.
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An ASU is not about training skills but about research and educating the top 30% to strive for more than bouncing and waiting at Scottsdale clubs. In comparison OSU and U of O are in far WORSE shape than ASU or U of A, in both funding and quality (football excluded).
The goal of higher education is to educate people so that they are not "bouncing and waiting at Scottsdale clubs." It's not limited to ASU students. U of A was ranked 96th and OU was ranked 108th in U.S. News and World Report. ASU was ranked 121st and OSU was ranked 151st. I wouldn't call that being "far WORSE." I'm not comparing states because if we did that Oklahoma Baptist is one of the top liberal arts colleges in the nation to which Arizona doesn't have one ranked in that category. Also, I didn't include all of the other universities in that state including Division I school Tulsa and Oral Roberts or the other 4 years schools like East Central University, Northeastern State University, Southeastern Oklahoma State University etc. Besides, the point wasn't to compare these schools directly but rather to acknowledge the fact that the OKC area has more higher education options yet it's 1/3 the size of Phoenix. This is proof that Phoenix has to address this. This is not something that is acceptable.
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I would also argue that $200k+/year jobs are as available here as they are in other cities, as I see them frequently and they are not advertised. PHX has great benefits from what I see. We just have more concealed weapons permits than passports in our population, so the expectations and illustrations of excellence are also not as apparent as some of us would like to see--and the education of parents has plenty to do with the expectations of a state's educational progress.
That's convenient. So these jobs exist yet are hidden and unspoken of. Okay. Sorry but that's not the reality. This city does not have those types of jobs. My nephew from LA loves Phoenix and was interviewing at several investment banks all over the country. He told me there was not one investment bank in this city...not one!
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We have challenges, yes, we are not as cool or edgy as Portland, but we are also more skilled at the low level and less skilled at the high level than we need to be to be the best city we can be. We have a ways to go. Get me the guns and let's get people some passports so they can learn a little something about what we can be.
I could care less about Portland. I love Phoenix but we need to address our challenges instead of rationalizing them and making excuses like I've read. No, it's not good that we lack higher level education options. It's not good that our city relies on irreputable trade schools that have no real proof of providing successful graduates like Western International and the Bryman school. It's not good that the 5th largest city in the country has ASU and a bunch of community colleges.
They do offer a lot of degree programs, but they are geared to attracting people seeking a Christian influenced college education. That limits the students they are going to attract, frankly.
A lot of schools are Christian affiliated but that doesn't mean their education is weak or that they limit their grauates to Christian influenced jobs like you are assuming. Grand Canyon is a Baptist school, you were just defending it. Duke is a Methodist school did you know that? Are you saying a Duke grad is limited to only Christian oriented jobs?
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Are there articles about the effect the additional schools, even these small ones, has had on the economy/business climate in OKC? I'd be interested to see what does happen.
You are changing the argument. Education is only one factor. Phoenix has a lot of advantages going for it but education isn't one of them. Likewise, OKC has a lot of disadvantages but at least they have a fair number of universities.
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It might have been great to have another uniiversity here, public or private, but why that didn't happen probably has a ton of answers. If the other campuses at ASU are ultimately broken off into smaller, more accessible (in terms of cost) but still quality schools, as has been suggested, that would be as close as we will get to what you are talking about. I don't see another more traditional private college/university on the horizon.
I'm on a committee of investors that are in strong discussion toward building a private 4 year liberal arts university in this city. There is a lot of interest from members of the community. It's going to happen at some point. It will start small and grow gradually.
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The rapid expansion of the degree programs at ASU means that it offers as many degree programs as multiple universities might have elsewhere.
It's the opposite, ASU has closed down many of its degree programs due to the lack of state funding to which Michael Crow himself has acknowledged so this is irrefutable. There is also strong discussion regarding the permanent closure of the ASU east campus.
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The school is attracting really fine students, both instate and out of state. It's been my privilege to meet some of them. I guess I don't see the fact that we don't have another one or two 2000-4000 student "universities" (or colleges) as the glaring deficiency you do.
We will agree to disagree but I think we need more options for higher education and am not content with one large university regardless of the number of fine graduates it produces. Our community should have more options, it deserves more options. You want to attract companies, then we need to improve our schools both our secondary and higher level education. Instead of settling and saying "Oh we will never get that", shouldn't you be proactive, acknowledge the problem and fix it
There are TONS of investment banks in Phoenix, this is a very SHORT list of Investment banks I've worked with:
KDS Capital Investment Bank
Green Manning & Bunch
Columbia West Capital
Compass Brokerage
The Miller Group
Lowry Hill Investment
Capital Finance
U.S. Bank
The Harris Bank
Stratford American
Lofy and Associates
Phoenix Investment Management Group
Arizona Business Bank
I just think people are very misinformed about what Phoenix has to offer and what is attracting new graduates and top students to ASU, UofA, etc. etc. On school ranking ASU, NAU, and UofA are "artificially" low on the top schools list because of the "soft enrollment law" in Arizona. It is law that the universities must admit all qualifying applicants. One major ranking tool U.S. News and other use is "selectivity" of the university. Obviously, Arizona schools would lose major points because of this law. However, specialty schools like Walter Cronkite, W.P. Carey, School of Nursing, etc. are often in the top 10 or 20 because they DO have "very selective" and "extremely selective" admission policies. I for one am conflicted over whether or not ASU should seek to remove that law from the books in order to move up in ranking. However, I believe that because of budgetary issues and the inability to expand the freshman class, ASU was allowed to select only the top students in 2008...still, 9,000 incoming freshman entered the university. That's 9000 competitive students vying to get into even more competitive degree programs. I think it is working quite well and is key to economic development in Phoenix.
I disagree...having lots of schools turn out graduates is hardly as productive as having a few World Renowned institutions...I've never heard of those schools in Oklahoma nor did I find them on any college ranking for schools of important trades that foster development, research, and application.
If so Philadelphia and Detroit would be in MUCH better shape; same for St. Louis, Washington, D.C., etc. Those metros are experiencing an unprecedented loss in population, high murder/crime rates, and significant loss of high paying jobs. I think quality over quantity is king and Arizona schools, even the MCC schools, get this. The Board of Regents and other college officials are looking into making some MCC schools 4 year degree colleges. Phoenix College fits the bill perfectly. Not only does its campus resemble a small private liberal arts school but it is somewhat centrally located. It is a pretty campus with old historic brick buildings. I think PC can be an incubator for competitive degrees in important fields like health care, business, education, and public policy.
Philadelphia and St Louis still have a better job markets than Phoenix. Our economy relies on retail, retirement living and construction. Their marekts are much more diversified. How man Fortune 500 companies exist in Phoenix compared to those cities. How many headquarters do we have compared to them. And you have provided examples that support your argument. I can do the same. How about New York, Boston, Charlotte, Chicago, San Francisco, Dallas, Washington DC metro compared to Phoenix? All of those markets are superior to Phoenix and have much greater access to high education.
I never claimed that universities are the sole driving force behind an economy but it's a part of it. You have to examine the total picture. This is why you can't use Detroit or Boston as example to advocate higher education because there are other factors that influence their economy. This is why you have to examine our market. Do you really think the addition of more universities in Phoenix, even if they are not "world renknown" would not enhance the city? Let me give you a quick example. I occasionally teach at Midwestern University. That area surrounding the university has blossomed. Students spend money. Apartments and houses have gone up there. I've seen small research companies sprout in the area. Restaurants, stores etc are growing in that area to serve that local market. It's not a world reknown university but it is helping its economy. Many of its graduates are going to be physicians, physician assistants, dentists and pharmacists in the valley and thus contribute to the economy.
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