Is it really Hell.... Should I move to Phoenix? (Tucson: environment, relocating)

[steve22]

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

You've mentioned that people who vacation here love it, well that goes for any major city. I also love San Diego but could never see myself living there. The things you do on a vacation vs the things you do on an average day are completely opposite- as you said, night and day.

Sure you can enjoy the beach, the pier, and all the other activites San Diego has to offer on vacation but daily life is much different. If I had to pay $1,000,000 for a small 2 bd/ 2 bth home in a safe neighborhood and have to commute 30 miles in Taxifornia traffic, I wouldn't be a happy camper. Phoenix has reasonably priced homes and traffic is bad, but not as terrible as California.

I could take a vacation to NYC and have a wonderful time but there is no way in hell I would EVER live there!

You get what you pay for, I suppose. The cost of living is high in San Diego, and real estate is certainly more expensive- because it's a more desirable place to live, and no wonder. Could I afford the same lifestyle in San Diego that I enjoy here on the same income? Probably not, but I'd be living in a much nicer city- better downtown, better weather, better-quality schools, better overall quality of life. And if you can afford to live near or close to downtown, you don't have to deal with the traffic issues there, which I'd say aren't any better than Phoenix's, but certainly no worse anymore. If you do have to commute, they also have a pretty efficient trolley system in & out of the city, which we don't have. Overall, it's a tradeoff I'd make, given the choice.

And by the same token, you mention that living in a place vs. visiting are different experiences. Well, that certainly applies here as much as anywhere. It's easy to see why people who come here on vacation to places like Scottsdale generally like it on first impression- they see all of the good, none of the bad. They come in the winter, see the sunshine, the mountains, play golf, visit the trendy Scottsdale bars/restaurants, etc. They don't experience the crime problems, the rush-hour traffic, the schools, the heat of summer, the health issues (valley fever, the ever-growing air quality problem), the immigration & political problems associated with it, etc.

Politically, this state is a disaster, something you'd never know just by visiting. I can tell you that as a medical professional, California, with its progressive tort reform laws, is a far better & more attractive place to live than Arizona these days. Arizona's liberal policy toward malpractice judgments, together with its status as having the nation's 3rd-most uninsured citizens, makes it a very dangerous place to practice medicine, healthcare professionals are fleeing like crazy & potential replacements aware of the situation aren't moving here. California, in a similar situation years ago, realized that it was facing a crisis, and passed legislature to ensure that it would retain enough healthcare workers to avoid such a situation. The Arizona legislators aren't that bright or forward-thinking. Anyone who's paid attention to their lack of foresight in terms of unchecked growth, failure to curb immigration, and failure to conserve water and other valuable resources surely knows. It's a state populated and run by short-sighted morons who are running it into the ground. The political situation here alone is enough to make me want to look elsewhere.

[a1m1700]

Originally Posted by gregsbabe1

where is everybody from? I am trying to find out who hate Phoenix the most, seems like alot of people from the east hate it. I am from the west and we loved it enough to move there. We moved from Oregon to the east coast and hated it, I wonder if that is a pattern, to many differences.

Came from NY hate NY loved Phoenix very much for years.

[AussieGirl]

Originally Posted by prizm

I'm shaking in my shoes. I can't believe how people hate Phoenix.

So here's the deal. I live in Manhattan. Love it This city is sooooo amazing. Don't want to leave, but the almighty dollar calls. Phoenix opportunities are calling. But ****, is it really worth it? I love the culture, people, vibe of New York City. I'm guessing Phoenix is just an incredible hell hole. That is the vibe I'm getting from long time residents.

Just shoot straight. Would I regret every second of living in Phoenix if I moved from NYC? Is there really no culture? Cool areas to live? Is it THAT awful?

Yes Prizm, Phoenix is a hell hole! It is the most awful place in the world!

I am an Australian that comes from the regular winner of the most liveable city in the world, Melbourne, and all 5 major Australian cities are in the top-10, so I am aware of what it takes to be a good city to live in. I have also been living in Seattle, and that is a beautiful city too, despite the dreary rain, but at least the rain provides green, flowers, and clearer air. I have an investment in Seattle, so I will have a tie there for sometime.

I moved to Phoenix in March for work, and I feel as if I am in jail! My freedom has been taken away from me, and thankfully I am moving to midtown Atlanta for work in September. Phoenix is disgusting, it is high in crime, high in pollution, and there is nothing to do for an urban girl such as myself. Phoenix is not a city, but one big suburb from one end to the other.

Phoenix is like the background of a cartoon that keeps repeating itself over and over. Ugliness, and strip malls. There is not any culture whatsoever here, and not any cool areas to live. I live in an area that is supposed to be good, and three blocks to the north are million dollar houses hiding behind ugly fortress walls and ugly desert landscaping, and three blocks to the south are meth addicts, crime, and car theft operations.

It is like that all over the metropolitan area, pockets of rubbish areas everywhere, so you can't avoid them when driving from one place to another. Scottsdale is suburban, overpriced, and fake and not an option, and all people care about there are the job that you do, the Hummer that you drive, and the amount of money that the women spent on their fake boobs. Tempe is too far out and not much better.

The growth of the area is about 250,000 people per year, but you don't see them! They get tacked on to the outskirts, and the only way that it can be determined that this growth is happening is by the forever increasing crime rate. People that have been here for a while resent the 'newcomers' and the crime increase, so don't expect any 'welcome' signs, and instead people withdraw into their homes.

People do not walk around at all, and they all use their cars instead to drive to the closest strip mall. There is nowhere to walk, and nothing interesting to look at while walking. Apartment complexes that are full of drug use and car theft, houses with signs out the front that say 'keep away and take it downtown,' and dust. Why would anybody want to walk around when this is all that can be seen?

In Australia, people say hello to each other, but whenever I come across a stranger and say hello here, I get looked at as if I have three heads. Some people actually say "what?" Then I will say, "I said hello, it is a friendly greeting, do you understand what that means?" People here are rude, and people here are afraid of the crime, and there is no way to escape it because unlike most cities, it is not kept to certain areas and instead it can occur anywhere.

The architecture is mainly post-1980 because the population of the metropolitan area in 1990 was 1.5 million people, and now it is 3.7 million or so. What that means is that new structures keep popping up, and the architecture has no character. Phoenix is not an old city, so it's not as if there is an interesting mix of old and new, just ugly new buildings. The architecture is hideous.

Maricopa county is one of the few metropolitan counties in the US that went to Bush in 2004, so don't expect any money spent on the arts or entertainment. All people care about here are the things that they own, and keeping safe when they lock their doors when they get home at night. Phoenix is not a city to go out for fun at all. People have to drive to go out for drinks, and how can that be fun? I'm not going to pretentious Scottsdale or juvenile Tempe, so my option is to go to wherever there is a pub at the closest strip mall. Yuck!

[AussieGirl]

The CBD (downtown) is non-existant. There is nothing going on there, and the streets are empty. There is no future for growth there either because of the pitfalls. City developers have a nightmare problem to deal with. The growth is increasing crime and pollution, and resources such as the filthy water. A reliance on cars like no other city in the world increases pollution and the dependance on oil. If more buildings are built, then the summer temperatures will not ever drop below 100 degrees at night ever again. The future of Phoenix is horrible.

Phoenix is anti-urban, and the reason that it is this way was to give people some of the options of a city without the problems associated with a city. That idea has failed. Pollution is the worst per capita in the US due to the reliance on a car, and it is also a valley so it has nowhere to go. Crime is out of control and one of the highest of any metropolitan area in the US, and no way to avoid it because it can occur anywhere.

I need urban culture. I need to be able to drive my car into the underground garage of a high rise condo building, and then if I choose to leave the house, I can walk around my area amongst many other interesting people. That will never occur in Phoenix. I need to be able to walk to restaurants, museums, interesting stores, the park, the movie cinema etc., and there is nothing like that here.

I was talking to a real estate agent last week, and she said that if you like New York, San Francisco and Sydney, then Phoenix is not for you. If you like quiet and people keeping to themselves, then Phoenix is for you. Phoenix is definitely not for me! The weather may be nice for nine months of the year, and horrid for three months, but the only difference in that is that the weather is pleasant to do nothing!

Forbes magazine last year rated Phoenix as the lowly 36th coolest city in the US, so don't expect any cool areas to live in here. Austin was rated #1, Seattle was #2, San Francisco was #3, and Boston #4. My next stop Atlanta was at a quite high #7, and that sounds much better to me than this dump! Don't ever consider Phoenix for money reasons because there is no cost on freedom and having a life. I would rather work two jobs in an interesting city with culture, character, and fun things to do, than one job here any day!

[irwin]

Aussie-

Everything you said is spot on! I can’t wait to leave this sprawling, dusty dump. I would take a small expensive apartment back in Washington over some Mc Mansion in Phoenix any day. Again, you pay for what you get and what you get in Phoenix is garbage.

Good luck in Atlanta. I am counting the days until when I finish my graduate degree and leave this place.

[Azrider]

Originally Posted by AussieGirl

Pollution is the worst per capita in the US due to the reliance on a car, and it is also a valley so it has nowhere to go. Crime is out of control and one of the highest of any metropolitan area in the US, and no way to avoid it because it can occur anywhere.

I agree with you on the lack of urban areas. But actually, Los Angeles is the worst city for pollution. Phoenix isnt even in the top 10. Top 10 cities include, cities mostly between LA and San Diego, Dallas, New York, Philadelphia, and Camden, NJ.

Originally Posted by AussieGirl

Forbes magazine last year rated Phoenix as the lowly 36th coolest city in the US, so don't expect any cool areas to live in here. Austin was rated #1, Seattle was #2, San Francisco was #3, and Boston #4.

This years Forbes magazine rated Phoenix as the #3 city for singles, up from #14, and the #2 city for job growth. Denver was #1 this year.

I agree with you on some points, but have loved Phoenix and Arizona for every minute of the 5 years I have lived here. I like the weather, the location of Phoenix, with easy access to Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Denver. I love going up into the mountains on week long trips. The Grand Canyon, Flagstaff, Payson, Greer. Phoenix does have a lack of urban culture, and if you want the big downtown life you will not find it here. There is always something going on here. I love the nightlife. There is great scenery, good people (for the most part), and plenty of things to do. I dont mind the sprawl too much, as it was going on where I came from. It is sad to see the desert being paved over.

I fail to see all this horrible crime that goes on here. People on this site seem to over-dramatize it, and make it seem oppressive. I read about crime in the Republic, but it does not seem excessive. Arizona IS the #2 for auto theft, and has the worst overall crime for 2005. But thats the whole state, not just Phoenix. BTW, those statistics say you have a 5.3% chance of being a crime victim every year. There are high crime areas, just like any city, but I have never been a victim of any type of crime as long as I have been here.

Sorry you feel this way about Phoenix. Its just not for you. Good luck wherever you end up. Australia is #1 on my vacation list, cant wait to visit.

[SpeedyAZ]

Politically, this state is a disaster, something you'd never know just by visiting. I can tell you that as a medical professional, California, with its progressive tort reform laws, is a far better & more attractive place to live than Arizona these days. Arizona's liberal policy toward malpractice judgments, together with its status as having the nation's 3rd-most uninsured citizens, makes it a very dangerous place to practice medicine, healthcare professionals are fleeing like crazy & potential replacements aware of the situation aren't moving here. California, in a similar situation years ago, realized that it was facing a crisis, and passed legislature to ensure that it would retain enough healthcare workers to avoid such a situation. The Arizona legislators aren't that bright or forward-thinking. Anyone who's paid attention to their lack of foresight in terms of unchecked growth, failure to curb immigration, and failure to conserve water and other valuable resources surely knows. It's a state populated and run by short-sighted morons who are running it into the ground. The political situation here alone is enough to make me want to look elsewhere.

I have to agree in this aspect. The only political figure I respect in this state is Sen. John McCain. Every other figure is dumber than a sack of potatoes (especially our Mayor).


AussieGirl- Evidently you aren't well-traveled so I won't go too far in depth but have you even tried to seek out some of the cultural activites here? I agree there is not much Nightlife but I'm not into the urban scene, never have been (talk about snotty, wanna-be's).

How can't you love the desert scenery? One of my favorite things to do is wake up in the morning and see the Arizona sun rise over the mountains- simply breathtaking!

Scottsdale is suburban, overpriced, and fake and not an option, and all people care about there are the job that you do, the Hummer that you drive, and the amount of money that the women spent on their fake boobs. Tempe is too far out and not much better.

Hmm....I didn't know you could characterize a city of over 220,000 people? Ignorance is bliss....

[AussieGirl]

Originally Posted by Azrider

I agree with you on the lack of urban areas. But actually, Los Angeles is the worst city for pollution. Phoenix isnt even in the top 10. Top 10 cities include, cities mostly between LA and San Diego, Dallas, New York, Philadelphia, and Camden, NJ.

Phoenix is number 18 in the US, and that is very high as most of the cities ahead of it are either industrial or larger cities than Phoenix. It is ahead of San Diego, and due to the growth of the area, and that it's a valley, pollution will only get worse.

Originally Posted by Azrider

This years Forbes magazine rated Phoenix as the #3 city for singles, up from #14, and the #2 city for job growth. Denver was #1 this year.

I just looked at that and I was surprised at the rise myself, until I looked at it more in depth. One of the reasons that Phoenix has risen from #14 to #3 is because it finished first in the culture section. Culture? Ba ha ha ha ha! What culture? There isn't any culture in Phoenix!

How can there be culture in a place that does not have any urban heart or history? The only culture that there is in Phoenix is some of the old wild west. People armed and shooting others, and because there is no distinctive good and bad areas like other cities, it can happen anywhere.

Originally Posted by Azrider

I agree with you on some points, but have loved Phoenix and Arizona for every minute of the 5 years I have lived here. I like the weather, the location of Phoenix, with easy access to Las Vegas, Los Angeles, San Diego, and Denver. I love going up into the mountains on week long trips. The Grand Canyon, Flagstaff, Payson, Greer.

I like seasons, and the weather is boring. Hot with nothing to do in summer, and very pleasant and sunny with nothing to do for the rest of the year. The places that you mentioned are beaut to visit, but it is not a reason to choose to live in a certain city. What the city has to offer should be the first choice, and Phoenix offers stuff-all compared to any other city of it's population size in the US.

Originally Posted by Azrider

Phoenix does have a lack of urban culture, and if you want the big downtown life you will not find it here. There is always something going on here. I love the nightlife. There is great scenery, good people (for the most part), and plenty of things to do. I dont mind the sprawl too much, as it was going on where I came from. It is sad to see the desert being paved over.

There is not any urban culture exactly! How on earth then can Forbes name Phoenix as #1 in culture? There isn't any! That was wrong of Forbes, so therefore, the #3 ranking is inaccurate. It must have been paid for, and Forbes suggest as much when they admit it was a surprise that Phoenix rated so high.

It also had Phoenix as #2 in nightlife! Gimme a break! There isn't any nightlife in Phoenix, and the only places that there is in the far east of the metropolitan area in Scottsdale, and the high crime Tempe area. Scottsdale is fake, pretentious, and people there could not give a stuff about the character of anybody, but the job they do, the car they own, and the plastic surgery that they have had done.

Forbes admit as much when they say that the Phoenix nightlife and singles scene is a mini-Hollywood. Yuck! The best nightlife is when all types come together, and that does not happen in the Phoenix metro area. I like dark, gothic dives as an option, and there is nothing like that here. The nightlife is fake and sophisticated, and mainly in two areas only. I spent time in Seattle, and if I didn't want to drive, I had access to all types of nightlife in walking distance. Not here though.

To go out, people have to drive to Scottsdale as it is a place that I would never live because it is overpriced and fake, or drive to Tempe where the crime is even higher, and then if you want other options, you have to drive clear across the other side of the city. The nightlife sucks because a lot of it is pretentious, and you need a car to go out because there isn't anything in the CBD (downtown).

Originally Posted by Azrider

I fail to see all this horrible crime that goes on here. People on this site seem to over-dramatize it, and make it seem oppressive. I read about crime in the Republic, but it does not seem excessive. Arizona IS the #2 for auto theft, and has the worst overall crime for 2005. But thats the whole state, not just Phoenix.

Come on now, Phoenix has a population of 3.7 million people. If Arizona is #1 for crime, then that is because so much of it occurs in the largest city of that state, and that is Phoenix. Just because you don't see it does not mean that it occurs, and the Phoenix metro area is one of the most dangerous in the country.

[AussieGirl]

Originally Posted by Azrider

BTW, those statistics say you have a 5.3% chance of being a crime victim every year. There are high crime areas, just like any city, but I have never been a victim of any type of crime as long as I have been here.

5.3% is quite high exactly! There is less chance of contracting HIV, but that does not mean that I'm not going to protect myself. I am anti-firearms though as I am a true social liberal so I'm not going to use guns to protect myself as they are part of the reason that crime is so high.

Originally Posted by Azrider

Sorry you feel this way about Phoenix. Its just not for you. Good luck wherever you end up. Australia is #1 on my vacation list, cant wait to visit.

It's a God forsaken hole. The future is going to bring further problems because there has not been any foresight. There will never be any culture, and I hate strip malls! You say that the people for the most part are pleasant, but I have no idea what you are comparing that to. I come from the friendliest country in the world, and the people here are not friendly and they withdraw from the newcomers instead of welcoming them.

If you do visit Australia, and spend time in Sydney and Melbourne, then you will see what beautiful cities are all about. You would never want to come back here. I am far more excited by Atlanta because I can live in midtown and experience all kinds of entertainment and urban culture. In the four months that I have been here, I desperately miss walking around city streets for restaurants and pubs, museums, the arts, interesting shops, and even simply grabbing a book and my iPod and sitting in a park. People are surely going to be friendlier as well.

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

I have to agree in this aspect. The only political figure I respect in this state is Sen. John McCain. Every other figure is dumber than a sack of potatoes (especially our Mayor).

Oh come on now! McCain? The bloke eating cake with Bush the day after Hurricane Katrina? I can clearly say why we have different views on Phoenix. I am far too liberal and progressive for this place.

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

AussieGirl- Evidently you aren't well-traveled so I won't go too far in depth but have you even tried to seek out some of the cultural activites here? I agree there is not much Nightlife but I'm not into the urban scene, never have been (talk about snotty, wanna-be's).

I am well traveled and there is buggar-all to do compared to any other city of it's population size. Disagree if you like. As for the nightlife, I agree with you. It is dreadful, trendy and pretentious, and not even in Phoenix.

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

How can't you love the desert scenery? One of my favorite things to do is wake up in the morning and see the Arizona sun rise over the mountains- simply breathtaking!

Yes I've seen it, and it was lovely for a week. I'd rather something interesting to do than something interesting to see each morning. I am far too urban for this place.

Originally Posted by SpeedyAZ

Hmm....I didn't know you could characterize a city of over 220,000 people? Ignorance is bliss....

Well I'll tell you then. I am aware of my surroundings, I am well travelled, and I am perceptive. Scottsdale is horrid.

[ArrowThruTheMoon]

So, I read this thread from the beginning and decided to sign up and comment.

I live in London, UK.... and hate it with a passion, so whoever was praising Europe earlier, has obviously never lived here. Everthing's expensive, crowded dirty and don't even get me started on illieagal immigration, and crime... at least in AZ you can have a gun and shoot the guy trying to rape your family, here you get a jail sentence for it.

From what I hear Phoenix is the place for me and my family. We are looking for the laid-back suburban life that so many of you take for granted. Maybe it's boring but I'm in my late 20s and culture, museums and whatever else you guys missing from there is way overrated... I guess it's a romantic idea in the US, based on the cofe-house culture the show Friends started and Starbucks made billions of $$$ on. Trust me those people are about as shallow as the plastic-chested So Cal Prada wannabes.

Before you judge me, I'm British but lived in LA and my wife is from there too...so I'm not entirely a *******. I worked in cities like Omaha, NE. Washington, DC and Atlanta,GA. I also lived in Budapest Hungary for a while, but I have to say the idea of 12 months sunshine, stripmalls, driving my own car everywhere (public transportation sucks so bad I don't even have the vocabulary to begin describe it) and eating in a mediocre restaurant everynight actually sounds heavenly.

I'm trying to decide where to move back in the States, and I like what I see about Mesa... mormons are neighbourly right?.... My other options would be Ventura county, California or somewhere around Las Vegas. I'm looking into maybe becoming a cop in Phoneix... we'll see what'd come of that... anyways.

From what I gather, most people complaining here are the city type young professionals... I consider myself more of the future soccer dad, suburban type who just wants to have peace and my own domain... but don't get me wrong I understand exposing my kids to culture, history etc when they are older, for sure.

I have that city thing out of my own system (lived and worked in Westminster). 110 degrees??...... bring it on!

Comments suggestions welcome!!!