Is it really Hell.... Should I move to Phoenix? (Tucson: sales, buying a house)

[irwin]

Originally Posted by prizm

I'm shaking in my shoes. I can't believe how people hate Phoenix.

So here's the deal. I live in Manhattan. Love it This city is sooooo amazing. Don't want to leave, but the almighty dollar calls. Phoenix opportunities are calling. But ****, is it really worth it? I love the culture, people, vibe of New York City. I'm guessing Phoenix is just an incredible hell hole. That is the vibe I'm getting from long time residents.

Just shoot straight. Would I regret every second of living in Phoenix if I moved from NYC? Is there really no culture? Cool areas to live? Is it THAT awful?

-d

I was in a similar situation last year when I decided to move out to Phoenix for graduate school. I was living in Washington DC, enjoying the “city life” and my own little apartment. I wanted to go back to grad school after working for awhile and figured that Arizona was a good change of pace. The weather seemed amazing, close to all the outdoor attractions of the West, and it seemed like a popular place for people to relocate. It was also cheap and given that I am a full-time student that is important. I figured I could graduate, get a job out here, buy a house, and settle down. I have to say that one year on I am counting the days until I graduate so I can leave.

All the things you like about NYC (the culture, the people, the neighborhoods, etc) are non-existent here. There are no walk-able neighborhoods in this place. The “city” (and I use that term loosely because this place really is just a bunch of suburbs) is so spread-out the idea of walking, taking public transportation, or riding your bike is not even considered by the VAST majority of people out here. Basically everyone lives in pre-planned residential developments built around golf course miles from any type of urban area. I hate it. If you have ever been to Houston, think Houston with mountains and no grass or trees.

Regarding the weather, the summer here is pretty brutal but lots of desirable places have bad weather. Boston, for example, has terrible weather but it’s probably my favorite city back East. So, in my mind the heat in Phoenix would be manageable if this place had any real life to it.

Since you seem to be a young person like myself, you will find the younger people out here COMPLETELY different from people in East Coast cities; think New Jersey gold chains and decked out cars. Generally, people in Arizona are less educated and less worldly than younger people you run into in Washington DC, NYC or Boston. I think the statistics bear this out. Maybe it’s a Southern California thing that Arizonians try to imitate, but I have never seen so many people who try to dress and look like Kevin Federline in my life. It’s actually comical but the pathetic thing is that this “look” is considered “in” out here. Other popular “cool” things with people out here are loud cars, crotch rocket motorcycles, and sleeves of tattoos. If you want to get a feel for the average Arizonian, go to a bar in Wildwood, NJ and imagine those guys without the accents.

Finally, and most important for me is the fact that Arizona is simply not an international city. Washington DC, NYC, LA, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston…you feel like people in the city are really changing the world and that feeling was always exciting for me. Here, it just feels like you’re in a second-class place. It’s hard to describe that feeling, but living in New York I am sure you understand.

This place certainly isn’t all bad. If you are looking for a place with cheap real estate where you can buy a home in a secluded neighborhood and avoid the energy of the city, Phoenix is probably a pretty good place. But, from reading your initial post and given my experience, I doubt you will find what you are looking for here in Phoenix.

[steve22]

Originally Posted by irwin

I was in a similar situation last year when I decided to move out to Phoenix for graduate school. I was living in Washington DC, enjoying the “city life” and my own little apartment. I wanted to go back to grad school after working for awhile and figured that Arizona was a good change of pace. The weather seemed amazing, close to all the outdoor attractions of the West, and it seemed like a popular place for people to relocate. It was also cheap and given that I am a full-time student that is important. I figured I could graduate, get a job out here, buy a house, and settle down. I have to say that one year on I am counting the days until I graduate so I can leave.

All the things you like about NYC (the culture, the people, the neighborhoods, etc) are non-existent here. There are no walk-able neighborhoods in this place. The “city” (and I use that term loosely because this place really is just a bunch of suburbs) is so spread-out the idea of walking, taking public transportation, or riding your bike is not even considered by the VAST majority of people out here. Basically everyone lives in pre-planned residential developments built around golf course miles from any type of urban area. I hate it. If you have ever been to Houston, think Houston with mountains and no grass or trees.

Regarding the weather, the summer here is pretty brutal but lots of desirable places have bad weather. Boston, for example, has terrible weather but it’s probably my favorite city back East. So, in my mind the heat in Phoenix would be manageable if this place had any real life to it.

Since you seem to be a young person like myself, you will find the younger people out here COMPLETELY different from people in East Coast cities; think New Jersey gold chains and decked out cars. Generally, people in Arizona are less educated and less worldly than younger people you run into in Washington DC, NYC or Boston. I think the statistics bear this out. Maybe it’s a Southern California thing that Arizonians try to imitate, but I have never seen so many people who try to dress and look like Kevin Federline in my life. It’s actually comical but the pathetic thing is that this “look” is considered “in” out here. Other popular “cool” things with people out here are loud cars, crotch rocket motorcycles, and sleeves of tattoos. If you want to get a feel for the average Arizonian, go to a bar in Wildwood, NJ and imagine those guys without the accents.

Finally, and most important for me is the fact that Arizona is simply not an international city. Washington DC, NYC, LA, San Francisco, Chicago, Boston…you feel like people in the city are really changing the world and that feeling was always exciting for me. Here, it just feels like you’re in a second-class place. It’s hard to describe that feeling, but living in New York I am sure you understand.

This place certainly isn’t all bad. If you are looking for a place with cheap real estate where you can buy a home in a secluded neighborhood and avoid the energy of the city, Phoenix is probably a pretty good place. But, from reading your initial post and given my experience, I doubt you will find what you are looking for here in Phoenix.

I have to hand it to you, you pretty much hit the nail on the head with everything. I'm in a very similar situation myself, coming originally from the midwest after finishing grad school and finding myself incredibly disappointed with the utter lifelessness of the "downtown", combined with the lack of soul, personality, and urban scene here. And of course, as you mentioned, the redneck lowlife and second-class nature of the populace. Kevein Federline look-alikes on crotch-rockets with sleeves of tattoos- Ha!! It's both funny and sad. But oh, so true.

[prizm]

Thank you very much all you gracious people. I'm sold...... to hell with Phoenix.

Sounds like a black hole. I kinda new it in before posting to this forum, but wow. I mean wow. You people laid it down like it really is.

Sadly, it sounds like yet another city that represents the future of America. A big hell hole full of strip malls and crappy subdivisions. It's the beginning of the end for this country, as I see more and more of this type of place cropping up all over the country. L.A., Atlanta, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, smaller hamlets down south transfixed with suburban bliss. No thanks. It all adds up to a dumbed down, soulless, fattening pen to waist away your life. But wait.... there's a sale at the mall. Gotta run!

It seems to me that Europeans really have "life" figured out. A respect for history and place. Keeping alive a community with a sense of belonging. How I wish this country could do the same. Fat chance. No pun intended. And yes, I'd love to move to Europe. Too bad they don't want any Americans.

I realize I'm gonna get flamed for this post. Sorry I was so pointed.

Thanks again everyone. Really.

[irwin]

Originally Posted by prizm

Thank you very much all you gracious people. I'm sold...... to hell with Phoenix.

Sounds like a black hole. I kinda new it in before posting to this forum, but wow. I mean wow. You people laid it down like it really is.

Sadly, it sounds like yet another city that represents the future of America. A big hell hole full of strip malls and crappy subdivisions. It's the beginning of the end for this country, as I see more and more of this type of place cropping up all over the country. L.A., Atlanta, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, smaller hamlets down south transfixed with suburban bliss. No thanks. It all adds up to a dumbed down, soulless, fattening pen to waist away your life. But wait.... there's a sale at the mall. Gotta run!

It seems to me that Europeans really have "life" figured out. A respect for history and place. Keeping alive a community with a sense of belonging. How I wish this country could do the same. Fat chance. No pun intended. And yes, I'd love to move to Europe. Too bad they don't want any Americans.

I realize I'm gonna get flamed for this post. Sorry I was so pointed.

Thanks again everyone. Really.

Prizm-

I think you are making a good choice to steer clear of Phoenix. Again, there are some positives about Phoenix (wearing shorts during January is not bad), but to me the negatives outweigh the positives. Considering your interests, I have a feeling you would feel the same.

As far as your greater point, I do think that European living and the traditional city design over there does have its advantages. But don’t completely count out America. The U.S. has some great cities that will give you everything you are looking for. San Francisco is about the most perfect place on earth. Has all the culture and city feel of NYC, but the area is simply beautiful. Seattle has a great downtown, Chicago is cold but cool, and Boston and Washington have great historical areas. The North End in Boston is one of my favs.

Another city that gets ignored is Philly. True, Philadelphia does have its problems. Yet, the design of the city should be a model for cities around the country. It has a great, compact downtown (Center City). Lots of fun places and the building are amazing (my friend use to live down there). There are neighborhoods of Philly that are almost like their own little city within greater Philadelphia; similar to the Village within Manhattan. Finally, there are suburbs, but they are their own defined towns with little downtown areas of their own. And the best thing is that everything is connected by SEPTA. You can live in a quaint little town on the mainline, which has its own little main street with local delis and pubs. Yet, you can also take the SEPTA commuter train into downtown.

Again, Philly does have its problems (like everywhere), but the design of the city should be held up as the standard for how to design a bigger city. If the city leaders in places like Phoenix had half a brain cell, they would realize this. But, alas, they are too concerned about their golf score and the new nitro’s on their WT-mobile.

[steve22]

Originally Posted by prizm

Thank you very much all you gracious people. I'm sold...... to hell with Phoenix.

Sounds like a black hole. I kinda new it in before posting to this forum, but wow. I mean wow. You people laid it down like it really is.

Sadly, it sounds like yet another city that represents the future of America. A big hell hole full of strip malls and crappy subdivisions. It's the beginning of the end for this country, as I see more and more of this type of place cropping up all over the country. L.A., Atlanta, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, smaller hamlets down south transfixed with suburban bliss. No thanks. It all adds up to a dumbed down, soulless, fattening pen to waist away your life. But wait.... there's a sale at the mall. Gotta run!

It seems to me that Europeans really have "life" figured out. A respect for history and place. Keeping alive a community with a sense of belonging. How I wish this country could do the same. Fat chance. No pun intended. And yes, I'd love to move to Europe. Too bad they don't want any Americans.

I realize I'm gonna get flamed for this post. Sorry I was so pointed.

Thanks again everyone. Really.

You're welcome... just being honest. I only wish I'd had your foresight before moving here, done a little more research and gotten some honest feedback from folks who had experienced life here. You learn from your mistakes, however. So, it honestly gives me some feeling of redemption & satisfaction to be able to save another naive soul from the same mistake I made.

As for Europe... the problems Phoenix and the other cities you mentioned as far as being decentralized expanses of suburbia arose as a direct result of the fact that these cities exploded in population during the era of the automobile, and at a time when the general demographic trend in this country was an exodus of families out of cities and into the suburbs. As a result, these places don't have much of a core downtown, since there never was one to begin with left over from the old days when people had to live closer to work. In Europe, cities are far older, and thus far more concentrated & pedestrian-friendly, with commercial districts and better, more efficient public transportation. They are, therefore, much better-equipped to deal with the exorbitant $6/gallon gas prices imposed on them, since they don't have far to drive if they drive at all. They're also, not a surprise, much more community-centric and personable.

Here, in cities like Phoenix et al, once oil prices rise to those levels- and they will, mark my words, once China and India become the world's chief consumers- the middle eastern oil exporters won't need to rely on the U.S. as their chief importers, & they'll start charging us what they've been charging consumers in Europe for years. Life will, at that point, become completely unlivable in these "cities" because they're so spread out. People who drive 500 miles a week are going to simply have to move closer or move away. That superimposed with the impending water crisis pretty much spells doom for this hellhole. Good riddance, IMO.

[irwin]

steve-

You will appreciate this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/me...es/5190094.stm

This is for all those people in Phoenix who think 95+ weather is "normal."

[steve22]

Originally Posted by irwin

steve-

You will appreciate this:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/me...es/5190094.stm

This is for all those people in Phoenix who think 95+ weather is "normal."

Irwin-

Believe me, I know all about it. I'm actually a physician, so I see the effects of the heat all the time. It's wreaking havoc on the city's homeless population. The truth is, the human body is far better-equipped to keep itself warm than to cool itself off. 130 people in California have died as a result of the recent heat wave, and I'm not sure how many more here. The hazard with "dry heat" is, you don't realize how much you're sweating b/c it evaporates quickly. People think "dry heat" means you don't sweat; trust me, you do. So you become dehydrated without realizing it, & next thing you know, you're in the ER. Happens all the time here. They're constantly pulling people off of Squaw Peak and Camelback in the spring, summer & fall with heat exhaustion and/or dehydration.

It's not surprising that greater Phoenix statistically leads the nation in incidence of kidney stones, the most common cause of which is chronic dehydration. And trust me, for those who don't know, passing a kidney stone is considered the worst pain a human can experience- including childbirth. And it lasts for a much longer duration. You don't want one.

Dry air is also, experts think far less healthy overall for your lungs than humid air. Far more respiratory illnesses are found in populations that live in arid climates.

The sun is another issue. Phoenix has the world's second-most frequent incidence of any metropolitan area of skin cancer, after Sydney, Australia. A little tidbit of info: sunscreen will protect you from basal cell carcinoma, the most frequent kind, which won't metastasize and won't kill you. Sunscreen won't, however, protect you at all against melanoma, the deadly type which will kill you with almost 100% certainty. There is no cure once it's spread. The more fair-skinned you are and the more sun-exposure you get, the higher your risk of melanoma. It's not uncommon for physicians to see fair-skinned Phoenix natives presenting with melanomas in their thirties, even twenties in some cases.

And I don't want to even get into Valley Fever. It would actually be interesting to conduct a study to see how much your life expectancy decreases by virtue of living in Phoenix as opposed to a more temperate place with less health hazards & less violent crime. I'd guess it's a statistically significant amount.

[RedWingsFan]

I've never lived in Phoenix but since I live in Las Vegas we have visited there frequently and we have considered moving there. I think it's a much nicer city that Vegas. It's hot but it's hot here too. The city is nice and has family activities. We go there for the hockey! Just pick a nice suburb and you'll be fine. Keep in mind that there is a VERY high illegal immigrant population out here, especially in Arizona. That has caused problems with bankrupting hospitals, hurting schools, etc. You have to be willing to deal with that problem to live there.

[Azrider]

Originally Posted by prizm

Thank you very much all you gracious people. I'm sold...... to hell with Phoenix.

Sounds like a black hole. I kinda new it in before posting to this forum, but wow. I mean wow. You people laid it down like it really is.

Sadly, it sounds like yet another city that represents the future of America. A big hell hole full of strip malls and crappy subdivisions. It's the beginning of the end for this country, as I see more and more of this type of place cropping up all over the country. L.A., Atlanta, Phoenix, Dallas, Houston, smaller hamlets down south transfixed with suburban bliss. No thanks. It all adds up to a dumbed down, soulless, fattening pen to waist away your life. But wait.... there's a sale at the mall. Gotta run!

It seems to me that Europeans really have "life" figured out. A respect for history and place. Keeping alive a community with a sense of belonging. How I wish this country could do the same. Fat chance. No pun intended. And yes, I'd love to move to Europe. Too bad they don't want any Americans.

I realize I'm gonna get flamed for this post. Sorry I was so pointed.

Thanks again everyone. Really.

You know, its just amazing that someone will use 6 people on an internet forum to help them overly influence a life-changing decision such as a move. How can you trust 6 people you never met, and your talking thru a computer screen. Grow up-- all of you. You use this site to get a small idea of whats going on. You dont use it to base your entire decision on. Im not just talking Phoenix either. Anywhere. Go there and check it out for yourself. Dont listen to what 6 others say, they are all totally different people and have totally different lives and opinions. Come back in a month and these 6 will probably not be here. It will be six with the opposite opinion. And for those of you who dont like it here, please, stop complaining. We get the point. [CUT]

[steve22]

Originally Posted by Azrider

You know, its just amazing that someone will use 6 people on an internet forum to help them overly influence a life-changing decision such as a move. How can you trust 6 people you never met, and your talking thru a computer screen. Grow up-- all of you. You use this site to get a small idea of whats going on. You dont use it to base your entire decision on. Im not just talking Phoenix either. Anywhere. Go there and check it out for yourself. Dont listen to what 6 others say, they are all totally different people and have totally different lives and opinions. Come back in a month and these 6 will probably not be here. It will be six with the opposite opinion. And for those of you who dont like it here, please, stop complaining. We get the point. [CUT]

I smell a realtor... seriously, why else would you care so much? What do you have to gain or lose by virtue of whether or not someone else chooses to move here? And why would it bother you so much that a fairly high number of people don't seem to like it here? Are you really that insecure?

Hey AZRider, I know I've mentioned this before, but this forum serves the purpose of providing those unfamiliar with an area access to multiple, objective opinions from those who've experienced an area firsthand. It's something I only wish I would've had access to before I moved here, rather than the fluffy propaganda that employers and realtors use to try to sell you on a move blindly. No one forces you to read these posts, so, if I may, stop complaining yourself about those whose opinions aren't the same as yours.