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Sherriff Joe DOES have a problem . his problem is that he upholds the law that other elected Pols fail to do ,if anybody goes to jail it should be Mayor Gordon and county board of supervisors . if they had backed him up there would be no problem . Sherriff Joe is hated in Phoenix and Maricopa county because he will not toe the establishments line ,in other words . they cannot control him . he is THE MAN , he is not a A** kisser .
thus far most of the arguments in this thread have nothing to do with Joe A.
Oh, they do - you just don't want to recognize it. Let's break it down:
Joe's jails, rough as they may be, haven't had an impact of recidivism
Joe's department performs comparatively poor (to Phoenix police, for example) when it comes to the enforcement of immigration laws
Joe's department can't seem to clear warrants like they're supposed to
Joe's department has paid out millions in lawsuits ($10 million? $20 million? Somebody help me with the number)
Does that about cover it?
If you ask me, the guy is a one-issue sheriff and, lucky for him, that issue seems to strike a nerve here. It's just too bad he's not actually, you know, doing a good job.
If it walks like an epic failure, talks like an epic failure, looks like an epic failure - it's probably an epic failure.
fcorrales80,
1) what i am saying is, the green card situation is just like wearing a big heavy long jacket in july in the bronx. situations you avoid to stay out of trouble and to avoid hassle. so dont carry the actual green card, carry a copy.
Right, like a COPY of an official document will clear you from being held after having been racial profiled...please, what world do you people live in. A VERY WHITE one if you ask me, one in which you never had to deal with any type of differing treatment or questioning because you just happen to be tanner. Now, I can say that I haven't been racial profiled much but I don't fit the "description" of what a typical illegal OR legal immigrant would look like so I am lucky; the times I have I just pull out my military ID and then I get treated completely different. But I have friends who've had the pleasure of being harassed because of it and even asked if they were citizen while speaking perfect english, LOL! How many of you get asked that?
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2) we all know the lawsuits wont get anywhere, but what you're saying is that they are clogging the court system and costing us taxpayer money. yeah so what, so does thousands of other non-related frivolous and unsubstantiated lawsuits.
Actually the lawsuits ALWAYS get somewhere. This is where the county and us tax payers ALWAYS lose money. If they don't win a lawsuit it is because there was a settlement for a huge chunk of change. These are NOT frivolous lawsuits but civil-rights violation suits that end up winning or settling each time! This is were our money goes.
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3) so is it the legals or illegals that Joe A is doing wrong, because you seem to be arguing from the legals side.
Joe is doing wrong on all fronts. He should be tracking down the illegals to return them to their rightful country or to deter them from trekking the desert and county land BUT this isn't the case. He should be out there stopping drug smugglers and weapons smugglers and coyotes who are out on county land engaged in this trade. He is violating LEGAL immigrants rights and therefore WE are paying his tab for doing so. But some of you think he is doing something because he has the news crews follow him before, during, and after one of these "raids." LOL! It is ridiculous and some of you are falling for it.
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4) if you think the system needs to be fixed so that legals can self indentify without the fear of losing their ID, then this has nothing to do with Joe A, it has to do with the way AZ and the US issues and manages ID, and again, has nothing to do with Joe A. i am rather confident that Joe A would embrace any ID changes that would help him identify folks more easily without having to detain people, etc.
The system does need to be fixed but so does Joe's MOS. He can't go around racial profiling at a factory, hold 40 people out of 100 for most of the day only to arrest 4 afterwards losing a lawsuit after a civil-rights violation is filed. This is plain wrong and the reason these people get huge payouts. Sure it would be easier if we have a "national" ID card that served as our citizenship ID, driver's license, passpord, etc. but that just isn't reality at the moment and that shouldn't give Joe license, no pun intended, to violate people's civil rights and to spend millions of our money on protecting his violations in court; well for paying out for his violations in court.
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thus far most of the arguments in this thread have nothing to do with Joe A.
Really, because as I'm reading and writing on this thread all I see is an issue relating to Joe...nothing else just that sheriff.
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so what would you say to this:
a new guy takes office. some guy gets questioned on the street cant produce valid id and who cant prove his citizenship because, according to him, he doesnt carry his green card because he is fearful of losing it. so the guy is released after questioning and a few days later this guy robs a store and kills a man. investigators later find notes that this guy was questioned on the street and released just a few days before.
If you can't produce valid ID you are held until you can be identified. I am a "partner" (BF) of a Phoenix PD officer and they don't just let people who can't be identified go...Besides, people who have green cards do get state ID or driver's licenses. Their green card is like their social security card and enables them to provide it as proof of ID for a DL. They shouldn't have to carry EXTRA ID on them just like we aren't required to carry anything more than our DL. I sure as hell don't carry my SS# as it can be used, replicated, etc. If I lose my DL I go to the MVD, have the DL # changed so that no one can use it anymore. Simple, that isn't the case with these important immigration papers.
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there would be public outcry that the sheriff's office wasnt doing their job properly, and most likely the new guy is not getting re-elected. and oh yeah, BIG lawsuits would hit the court system.
Big lawsuits are already hitting the court system. Too late to stop those. We will be paying out for Joe's mess and mismanagement LONG after he is out of office. The next sheriff who inherits his corrupt system will have his hands full as he cleans up the crap. He won't be getting re-elected.
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i still cant understand why people think we need to make it easy for immigrants to become US citizens. make it tough and you gain back control of both legal and illegal immigration. too many illegals slip into the US by the means setup to allow legals.
LOL, this is probably the dumbest argument yet. Right next to the one by charles. First off illegals don't slip in to the US by means of the legal system. They COMPLETELY avoid the system. This is when we need joe out there patrolling his county land to catch the huge cargo shipments of drugs, illegals, coyotes, etc from getting past his backyard and into other American cities including Phoenix and its' suburbs. No one wants to make it easy for illegals we want to make it MUCH harder for those illegals to even make it to the cities where they can "blend" in much more easily.
Last edited by fcorrales80; 08-22-2009 at 01:21 PM..
Oh, they do - you just don't want to recognize it. Let's break it down:
Joe's jails, rough as they may be, haven't had an impact of recidivism
Joe's department performs comparatively poor (to Phoenix police, for example) when it comes to the enforcement of immigration laws
Joe's department can't seem to clear warrants like they're supposed to
Joe's department has paid out millions in lawsuits ($10 million? $20 million? Somebody help me with the number)
Does that about cover it?
hmmm, then dont vote for him next time his position is up for election. but i am sure your 1 vote against him will be offset by 2 other votes for him.
fcorrales80, yes, having a copy of a real document is probably better than having no document at all, just as it is proving you have car insurance. i can forge any doc and make it look like a copy, but when the LE goes to confirm it it is either fake or real. problem solved. i can even forge docs that look very real, but i think the LE can confirm if its legit.
its very weak griping to say "i'm afraid to carry my id because i think i may lose it".
here's some wise advise to those who need to have a green card..... CARRY YOUR DAMN GREEN CARD ON YOU AT ALL TIMES, just as those who drive, they carry their drivers license, registration, and proof of insurance at all times while driving.
as for the lawsuits, simple solution, change the law to make it a penalty for not carrying green card, or copy of green card, and change the law that says the dept cannot be sued for detaining folks who cannot prove their ID (aside from civil suits that perhaps may be legit if the legal person detained was abused, etc). i dont think anything Joe A is doing is causing a burden on the court systems or taxpayers. Joe A is upholding the law, so if you think the lawsuits are a problem then you need to organize your followers and get the votes needed to change the law so that Joe A or his successor cant do the things that you say he is doing which is causing a burden on the court system and tax payers. otherwise you're preaching to the quire.
Location: Prescott Valley,az summer/east valley Az winter
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the question is~ is joe upholding ALL the laws? How many citations issued under law that makes it illegal to hire an illegal? Should be about equal to number of illegals detained shouldn't it? Please let me know how many hundred businesses have been cited!
Joe is also in charge of enforcing felony warrents ~ so I guess he's got all of those stopped too~ including the drunk that killed a cop last winter with 4 felony citations out against him
hmmm, then dont vote for him next time his position is up for election. but i am sure your 1 vote against him will be offset by 2 other votes for him.
Not likely next time around. Especially since the budget deficits are at the foreground of the argument this time around. He won't be able to escape the pressure of the fiscal mismanagement of this department. He just isn't doing a very good job and it is hurting all of us!
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fcorrales80, yes, having a copy of a real document is probably better than having no document at all, just as it is proving you have car insurance. i can forge any doc and make it look like a copy, but when the LE goes to confirm it it is either fake or real. problem solved. i can even forge docs that look very real, but i think the LE can confirm if its legit.
Actually, again as a partner of a cop, NO a COPY of a legal document isn't going to be enough especially in an ICE situation or one in which legal residence is in question. You are very ignorant of the facts and like I said before, live in a very WHITE world in which you have no idea the situation and difficultly that many face. It is fine for you to be so innocent and to live in a vanilla situation but please have some understanding and tolerance for those that aren't born with such privilege. I'm glad you can forge ID and documents, that is illegal just like sneaking into the country. Maybe we should send sheriff Joe over to your place.
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its very weak griping to say "i'm afraid to carry my id because i think i may lose it".
Again, in your vanilla world and even in MY world some of this would seem simple but the fact of the matter is much more complex. It is also a shortsighted argument on your part.
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here's some wise advise to those who need to have a green card..... CARRY YOUR DAMN GREEN CARD ON YOU AT ALL TIMES, just as those who drive, they carry their drivers license, registration, and proof of insurance at all times while driving.
Read above! I've explained the difference between an DL, proof insurance and registration. Do you keep your title IN your vehicle. NO, you shouldn't because as the statement on the back of the title says; "NEVER leave this document in your vehicle." Why? Because if it is lost or stolen your in for a round of shiii...that will be very difficult to circumvent. On top of that someone can use it to take possession of your vehicle and it will be hard to get it back in order.
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as for the lawsuits, simple solution, change the law to make it a penalty for not carrying green card, or copy of green card, and change the law that says the dept cannot be sued for detaining folks who cannot prove their ID (aside from civil suits that perhaps may be legit if the legal person detained was abused, etc). i dont think anything Joe A is doing is causing a burden on the court systems or taxpayers. Joe A is upholding the law, so if you think the lawsuits are a problem then you need to organize your followers and get the votes needed to change the law so that Joe A or his successor cant do the things that you say he is doing which is causing a burden on the court system and tax payers. otherwise you're preaching to the quire.
LOL, another very white and innocent statement. Sure let's just change some civil rights laws and allow those with guns and badges to do as they wish to a few citizens and minority population. This sounds very Jim Crow and southern; maybe we'll call those new laws JOE Crow laws. Joe is certainly causing a lot of strain on our tax paying dollars if you don't think he is you need to read about the lost lawsuits and settlements that result from actions within his department. It is costing us a lot and we can't afford it especially at this time during the recession when we have little money for our governments to work with. Joe's job first of all is not to enforce immigration law but that he can as a secondary action is fine but he needs to go after illegal immigrants in a much more efficient way which is very possible and which he is not doing.
hmmm, then dont vote for him next time his position is up for election. but i am sure your 1 vote against him will be offset by 2 other votes for him.
fcorrales80, yes, having a copy of a real document is probably better than having no document at all, just as it is proving you have car insurance. i can forge any doc and make it look like a copy, but when the LE goes to confirm it it is either fake or real. problem solved. i can even forge docs that look very real, but i think the LE can confirm if its legit.
its very weak griping to say "i'm afraid to carry my id because i think i may lose it".
here's some wise advise to those who need to have a green card..... CARRY YOUR DAMN GREEN CARD ON YOU AT ALL TIMES, just as those who drive, they carry their drivers license, registration, and proof of insurance at all times while driving.
as for the lawsuits, simple solution, change the law to make it a penalty for not carrying green card, or copy of green card, and change the law that says the dept cannot be sued for detaining folks who cannot prove their ID (aside from civil suits that perhaps may be legit if the legal person detained was abused, etc). i dont think anything Joe A is doing is causing a burden on the court systems or taxpayers. Joe A is upholding the law, so if you think the lawsuits are a problem then you need to organize your followers and get the votes needed to change the law so that Joe A or his successor cant do the things that you say he is doing which is causing a burden on the court system and tax payers. otherwise you're preaching to the quire.
The Constitution (ever heard of it?) requires probable cause to arrest someone. Not being able to prove citizenship is not probable cause. One of the people suing him is a US born citizen.
quire? Aside from the spelling it is not even the appropriate phrase for the context. And this guy is telling us about Constitutional law.
The Constitution (ever heard of it?) requires probable cause to arrest someone. Not being able to prove citizenship is not probable cause. One of the people suing him is a US born citizen.
quire? Aside from the spelling it is not even the appropriate phrase for the context. And this guy is telling us about Constitutional law.
LOL, I didn't understand his last sentence until I read it again. Preaching to the CHOIR... But still, "changing the law" to convenience Joe isn't very smart and is not the American way WHAT SO EVER!!!
The Constitution (ever heard of it?) requires probable cause to arrest someone. Not being able to prove citizenship is not probable cause. One of the people suing him is a US born citizen.
quire? Aside from the spelling it is not even the appropriate phrase for the context. And this guy is telling us about Constitutional law.
being detained is not an arrest, please read and try to understand the laws. a quick search yields common answers.
"Detained if the persons particulars are neither verifiable or check able at the time. If you can verify or show proof that your Name and Address is genuine then there is no reason for the police to detain you . Arrested if you are charged with a crime and the police wish to put you up before a magistrate ASAP. or they have reason to believe you will abscond before a hearing."
so as i said before, if you dont want to be detained then CARRY YOUR DAMN GREEN CARD.
and, no one every said stopping a person for no reason was "legal", it was stated that many legals were being detained only to call their relatives to bring the green card to the station. no mention of why such person was stopped before being detained. i dont think Joe A is just randomly or profiling people at will for no reason..... if you claim he is please provide the court case #'s supporting your claims so i can read them.
and yes, my bad, a spelling mistake, sometimes speling mistakes hapen, and some people just dont make cents.
Maricopa needs more GoJoe !!
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