Would you like to see a commuter train within Phoenix? (Mesa: purchase, construction)

[fcorrales80]

The problem with that is you're artificially creating San Francisco or New York--high cost of living and extremely high taxes.

I slightly agree with you here but am for an urban growth boundary that would protect our natural environment that surrounds Phoenix. While this scenario of creating a San Fran or NYC in Phoenix sounds alarming at first glance, it is highly unlikely and generations away in terms of growth and available land for development.

"What is Florence to Downtown PHX - 60 miles? That's about the size of Connecticut from north to south. Or the distance from NYC to Philly. The coach train ticket from Philly to NYC is $100 per trip, on a train line that's been there for a century or more so the cost should have been paid. How many are willing to pay $500 a week to commute?"

Reason enough not to build a commuter train system in Phoenix.

Actually, transit options like these (commuter trains) are designed for just that type of growth...commuter rail isn't the same as heavy rail in terms of subways and elevated trains but one in which "commuters" from afar use it to get to work/school/home/etc...It is very different from light rail and inner city transit development but does share in the goal of reducing traffic.

The differences are in the uses of the systems. The light rail and other forms of inner city transit are meant to not only transport commuters but to get people around for shopping, events, entertainment, etc. Commuter trains aren't designed to transport people within their communities for daily living. Commuter rail is a suburban tool used to ease movement into urban environments.

[Howard Roark]

I will put on my science fiction hat (with propeller on top) to say this: Put in a subway from downtown to Skyharbor and to ASU, downtown to the football stadium in Glendale, downtown to Scottsdale - old town, and then light rail from I-10 and Chandler blvd north to the current light rail line.

Okay, my science fiction hat fell off just now. How about commuter rail from I-10 and chandler blvd to downtown? Too many cars on the Broadway curve. It's very fugly.

Could just do the same and add commuter rail lines down I-17 to downtown. Everything should connect to downtown. Make the downtown core very URBAN. We need to break the insane reliance on the gas guzzler and make Phoenix no. 1 in mass transit. We have the weather, no earthquakes, and stuff. Leverage it and become at least the third largest metropolitan area in the US (with clean air).

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Howard Roark

I will put on my science fiction hat (with propeller on top) to say this: Put in a subway from downtown to Skyharbor and to ASU, downtown to the football stadium in Glendale, downtown to Scottsdale - old town, and then light rail from I-10 and Chandler blvd north to the current light rail line.

Okay, my science fiction hat fell off just now. How about commuter rail from I-10 and chandler blvd to downtown? Too many cars on the Broadway curve. It's very fugly.

Could just do the same and add commuter rail lines down I-17 to downtown. Everything should connect to downtown. Make the downtown core very URBAN. We need to break the insane reliance on the gas guzzler and make Phoenix no. 1 in mass transit. We have the weather, no earthquakes, and stuff. Leverage it and become at least the third largest metropolitan area in the US (with clean air).

WOW! You are even more ambitious than I am in regards to Phoenix development...good to hear!

[KarmaPhx]

Train = Above Ground
Subway = Below Ground

Seems to be some confusion.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

WOW! You are even more ambitious than I am in regards to Phoenix development...good to hear!

And that should be further proof that we Libertarians are generally not opposed to things like mass transit. In fact, I'm certainly in favor of better mass transit, including commuter rail. The main difference is in the debate of WHO pays for it.

I seriously believe that other funding alternatives should be explored, such as private enterprise. We've already witnessed MANY times how the government (federal, state, and local) collected the revenue, then delayed, scaled back, or even scrapped these transportation projects. They claim it's because of the recession ... but if the truth were known, government agencies actually mis handle the money which is allotted to them. Case in point: ADOT just recently announced that the new freeways we voted for five years ago will be shelved ... and this was AFTER they already collected the tax revenue to build the roads! This isn't the first time ADOT has jerked us around, and it won't be the last if we keep relying on them for transportation projects. Privatize the system and let it pay for itself via user fees.

[Ritchie_az]

"In fact, I'm certainly in favor of better mass transit, including commuter rail. The main difference is in the debate of WHO pays for it."

Yeah, if the Union Pacific and/or the BNSF (or a private third party) wanted to begin commuter service in Phoenix, I'd be all for that. And if there is a way for someone to make a profit on a commuter train in Phoenix, that person/company will give it a try.

[Java Jolt]

Why not have commuter trains connecting the east valley with the west valley and running through downtown? Why not have them running north and south?

People here like their freeways so they can drive their cars and trucks on, but it looks like the freeway expansions are put on indefinite hold. What's going to happen in the meanwhile when traffic becomes even more snarled and people spend more time driving to and from their jobs?

We need more options besides driving and getting all stressed out in crush hour traffic.

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

Why not have commuter trains connecting the east valley with the west valley and running through downtown? Why not have them running north and south?

People here like their freeways so they can drive their cars and trucks on, but it looks like the freeway expansions are put on indefinite hold. What's going to happen in the meanwhile when traffic becomes even more snarled and people spend more time driving to and from their jobs?

We need more options besides driving and getting all stressed out in crush hour traffic.

The Light Rail is slated to go as far east as Mesa Dr along Main St within 2-3 years, it presently stops just E of Dobson Rd.

[fcorrales80]

I just found out that Phoenix HAD commuter train service prior to the 1960's. The last electric powered trolley cars in Phoenix ran from 1893-1950...the last commuter train between Wickenburg, Glendale, Downtown Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa ran until 1960...both the trolleys and the commuter train were a huge success and were used extensively until the city decided to "modernize" and go from trolley car service to gas powered bus (after the trolley fleet fire) and ripped up all the rail lines from the streets of Phoenix. This led to the eventual dead-end for the commuter train because those coming into downtown found it easier to drive their own cars in traffic than deal with busses...

[Ritchie_az]

"I just found out that Phoenix HAD commuter train service prior to the 1960's. The last electric powered trolley cars in Phoenix ran from 1893-1950...the last commuter train between Wickenburg, Glendale, Downtown Phoenix, Tempe, and Mesa ran until 1960...both the trolleys and the commuter train were a huge success"

If they were so successful, why aren't they still around?

The Santa Fe did have passenger service (long-haul, not commuter, as it connected to the Southwest Chief in Williams) along the route you said. It was called "Train 42". And it was profitable once upon a time. The Interstate Highway system and airline industry killed it. Because of strict government regulations, the Sante Fe Railroad was forced to operate the money-losing passenger train until an act of Congress (literally) allowed them to end operations in 1969.
The Union Pacific operated the Sunset Limited through Phoenix. When Amtrak took over the bankrupt passenger rail system in 1971, they continued operating the Sunset Limited through Phoenix. In 1996, Amtrak rerouted the train through Maricopa (south of Phoenix) because they were losing too much money with the Phoenix stop (not enough passengers to pay for the added miles). The Union Pacific then closed the line west of Buckeye, which they had only kept open because the federal government forced them to maintain it for Amtrak (the UP was losing money on the train, too).

The trolley may or may not have ended because of the "modernization" of Phoenix; however, the passenger trains ended because it was a waste of money.