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I have no problem with the Suburban lifestyle, Office parks, Strip malls, gated communities, or parks nearby. In fact I actually kind of enjoy Suburbia!!!!!
But that doesn't mean the entire valley has to be that way. Some of us also enjoy Urban scenes like Skyscrapers, good transit, coffee houses, clubs and bars that stay open all night, and public art. Nothing wrong with those things either.
I think a good mix of Urban height and Suburban sprawl fits Phx. pretty good. We don't have to piled on top of each other like back East but we don't have to be all Wal-Martized and big boxed either.
What really makes a good city is the diversity!!!!!!!
I agree that there should be a mixture, but within reason. I wouldn't mind other mid-rise buildings and mixed-use condos downtown, if there is a demand.
Again, realistically, there is no need for high-rise development downtown. New York, Atlanta, Chicago, Houston, and Dallas all have a demand for that style of development. Phoenix simply doesn't.
Phoenix cannot sustain a good public transit system. The Valley is laid out in a manner that prevents public transporation from being an efficient mode of transportation. If I need to travel from 59th Avenue and Greenway to 7th Street and Bethany Home there is no way with all the stops and lack of diagonal streets that I will be able to travel between the two by public transportation in a timely manner. There is no denying that.
I would support Phoenix having more independent coffee houses; however, it's not like the city discourages people from owning independent franchises. If people wanted to invest in coffee shops in Phoenix, they have free range to do so. 24-hour bars are illegal in every city except New Orleans and Las Vegas, so I can't imagine that working in Phoenix.
Phoenix is what it is through the free market. If the free market supported a more urban environment, Phoenix would be more urban. However, the suburban form still dominates. What does that tell you?
I agree that there should be a mixture, but within reason. I wouldn't mind other mid-rise buildings and mixed-use condos downtown, if there is a demand.
Again, realistically, there is no need for high-rise development downtown. New York, Atlanta, Chicago, Houston, and Dallas all have a demand for that style of development. Phoenix simply doesn't.
Phoenix cannot sustain a good public transit system. The Valley is laid out in a manner that prevents public transporation from being an efficient mode of transportation. If I need to travel from 59th Avenue and Greenway to 7th Street and Bethany Home there is no way with all the stops and lack of diagonal streets that I will be able to travel between the two by public transportation in a timely manner. There is no denying that.
I would support Phoenix having more independent coffee houses; however, it's not like the city discourages people from owning independent franchises. If people wanted to invest in coffee shops in Phoenix, they have free range to do so. 24-hour bars are illegal in every city except New Orleans and Las Vegas, so I can't imagine that working in Phoenix.
Phoenix is what it is through the free market. If the free market supported a more urban environment, Phoenix would be more urban. However, the suburban form still dominates. What does that tell you?
I think you're missing the point about High-rise development.
Do you ever go Downtown? Look around - there already are Tall buildings and a few more are under construction from what I last saw. So saying there is no need for it is wrong because there obviously is some kind of demand!!!!!!!!
Should there be taller buildings? Guess it all depends.
All big cities have Skyscrapers so why do you think Phx. should be the only city that has to be left out? They should be built Downtown - not near parks, mountains, or in Suburban areas though.
I think you're missing the point about High-rise development.
Do you ever go Downtown? Look around - there already are Tall buildings and a few more are under construction from what I last saw. So saying there is no need for it is wrong because there obviously is some kind of demand!!!!!!!!
Should there be taller buildings? Guess it all depends.
All big cities have Skyscrapers so why do you think Phx. should be the only city that has to be left out? They should be built Downtown - not near parks, mountains, or in Suburban areas though.
Yes, I have been downtown. There is one high-rise building under construction downtown. The primary company that was interested in locating offices in that buildings has pulled out. I don't know what "few" you saw going up. I never denied that there were high-rise buildings downtown. I am simply replying to why Phoenix doesn't have 70 story buidlings.
Again, why does Phoenix have to have huge buildings because that's what every other city has? We have an airport nearby with FAA imposed height restrictions. That is enough of a reason. Should we just build 70 story buildings downtown and have workers downtown and passengers on planes close enough to stare at each other face to face? No. That's irresponsible and dangerous.
It is my understanding that FAA doesn't regulate height, but it does weigh in on proposals that might interfere with flight paths and climb/descent profiles. FAA states its objections if necessary, but ultimately it is local ordinance that prevails.
Well, we do have a fountain that is among the world's highest and is over 100 feet higher than our highest building. That should tell you something. It's about economics. It makes more sense to have a ex-urb fountain gracing a high end community than a downtown high rise. There is no demand and no economic argument to be made for downtown high rises. The latest "bright idea" for downtown is condos for aging boomers - a sort of multi-story Sun City. This idea may even find some traction in an improved economy and transform downtown into a tony residential area. But corporate buildings? No. It's cheaper and more desirable to build modest employment campuses in the 'burbs.
Last edited by Ponderosa; 10-18-2009 at 09:33 AM..
I have to say that downtown Phoenix is extremely underwhelming for a city of its size. Look at downtown Denver to compare - and Denver is fairly spread out, but not nearly as big as Phoenix population wise. I just find it odd that Phoenix has a downtown that looks like it's for a city a quarter the size of metro Phoenix.
It would be great if Phoenix had a better urban environment. There is absolutely no comparison to a similarly sized city like Chicago.
Half the reason everyone from the midwest goes there for a weekend vacation is to get a taste of the urban environment that their city is missing, and to go shopping downtown on Michigan Ave.
Phoenix should be drawing hoards of people in from the surrounding area for the same reason. People aren't going to come for more shopping malls, traffic & suburbia, but they will come for something different.
It would be great if Phoenix had a better urban environment. There is absolutely no comparison to a similarly sized city like Chicago.
Half the reason everyone from the midwest goes there for a weekend vacation is to get a taste of the urban environment that their city is missing, and to go shopping downtown on Michigan Ave.
Phoenix should be drawing hoards of people in from the surrounding area for the same reason. People aren't going to come for more shopping malls, traffic & suburbia, but they will come for something different.
The Phoenix is one of the top tourist destinations in the US. They come for what WE are known for, sunshine, golf, open spaces, elbow room. People move here for the same reasons. We don't need to be creating a version of Chicago in the desert for homesick midwesterners or wannabe urbanistas who did not do their relocation homework.
It really doesn't. Phoenix is not an urban city, nor does it need to become one. People come here for the laid back lifestyle and outdoor amenities. If you haven't noticed, people in the Valley do not like being stacked on top of one another.
Normally, I just ignore posts like these ... Moderator cut: hostile language
You generalize far too often, and you ASSume that everyone moved here for the same reasons as you did. I have some shocking news for you: not everyone who moved here (or lives here) has to be just like you. I was born here, and I continue to reside here for much more important reasons, such as CAREER, FAMILY, etc. Frankly, I couldn't care less about your precious mountain views! My parents moved here over 50 years ago for things like job opportunities, and the right to work atmosphere ... not for views of sunsets or mountains. Hell, a person could live in or around Sedona, or near the Grand Canyon for much prettier scenery as far as that goes!
Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiman
It seems there is a very small, but vocal minority of people who think that downtown Phoenix HAS to have tall buildings BECAUSE it is the 5th largest city in the United States. That logic is flawed. This idea that there should be a direct correlation between population and the number of towers that rise in the air is absurd. There are many cities in the United States that have a more urban downtown than Phoenix. I don't see why people put so much energy into changing downtown Phoenix, when cities like Charlotte and Atlanta offer skyscrapers that they can mindlessly stare and drool at all day long.
Actually, you and your fellow NIMBYs who are against any kind of vertical development are the small but vocal minority. That's fine ... you certainly have the right to speak out against it all you want. However, I would suggest that since the majority of highrises are paid for through private capital, and since you apparently don't have any kind of financial interest or stakes in these projects, this highrise/skyscraper topic really should mean absolutely nothing to you whatsoever.
I'm sure you are well aware that there are over four million people living in the Phoenix metro area ... which indicates that there is some diversity. With that kind of population, there are going to be people who have differing ideas of what quality of life is. Moderator cut: hostile language My idea of quality of life is competitive jobs that pay higher wages, more urban amenities such as an active nightlife, and other things that would help make Phoenix more of a world class city. See what I mean? Different stroks for different folks.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by homlish560
I have no problem with the Suburban lifestyle, Office parks, Strip malls, gated communities, or parks nearby. In fact I actually kind of enjoy Suburbia!!!!!
But that doesn't mean the entire valley has to be that way. Some of us also enjoy Urban scenes like Skyscrapers, good transit, coffee houses, clubs and bars that stay open all night, and public art. Nothing wrong with those things either.
I think a good mix of Urban height and Suburban sprawl fits Phx. pretty good. We don't have to piled on top of each other like back East but we don't have to be all Wal-Martized and big boxed either.
What really makes a good city is the diversity!!!!!!!
Now, this makes perfect sense. Kudos to you once again!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickw252
It would be great if Phoenix had a better urban environment. There is absolutely no comparison to a similarly sized city like Chicago.
Half the reason everyone from the midwest goes there for a weekend vacation is to get a taste of the urban environment that their city is missing, and to go shopping downtown on Michigan Ave.
Phoenix should be drawing hoards of people in from the surrounding area for the same reason. People aren't going to come for more shopping malls, traffic & suburbia, but they will come for something different.
One of the problems is many newcomers and tourists often think that Phoenix is going to be like the entire state of Arizona. In reality, Phoenix being the largest city, should be more urban because it IS different than the rest of the state! If they want mountains, outdoor recreation, and other non urban amenities, there are many beautiful locations OUTSIDE of Phoenix to get a fill of all that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa
The Phoenix is one of the top tourist destinations in the US. They come for what WE are known for, sunshine, golf, open spaces, elbow room. People move here for the same reasons. We don't need to be creating a version of Chicago in the desert for homesick midwesterners or wannabe urbanistas who did not do their relocation homework.
Now, let's examine what you wrote above. You admit that we are known for sunshine, open spaces, etc., and that's why people come here. Then on the other hand, you complain about education being a low priority here. Look at the facts, Ponderosa: if Phoenix attracted a higher calliber of people who were more interested in big city amenities (such as competitive jobs, an active urban core, etc. ... instead of silly things like the sunny climate & outdoor scenery), you would likely see a more educated populace. Therefore, you would attract more people that would be interested in improving education overall. It all goes hand in hand with the types of crowds we attract. If we continue on the same path to nowhere, we will get nowhere. And what might have worked well for Phoenix many years ago may not work so well now or in the future.
Last edited by SouthernBelleInUtah; 10-18-2009 at 04:08 PM..
I think it's a matter of balance. And to me, we've got a decent mix so far. Little bit of everything. Keeping in mind that Phoenix has some room to grow...up, down, out, and in. We're a young city! Rome not built in a day and all that. I'm not averse to any of it as long as 1) builders make it pretty 2) keep it pretty. 3) try to make it unique to Phoenix. It need not be a skyscraper, but maybe a completely green building or something that pays homage to the history and/or landscape of the place. Like the way Seattle has its Space Needle. Yeah...I know some people hate it but tourists still want to see it, and it's something identified w/ the city. That and the fish market. I dunno...maybe we could market chocolate-covered scorpions as an aphrodisiac?
Ok, then maybe our coffee shops could incorporate cactus flavors in the coffees and teas? It should be something you can't find anywhere else in the world...
As an avid hiker, as long as they don't build a road through my precious Phoenix Mtn Preserve or South Mountain Park, then they can build skyscrapers up to kingdom come and it won't bother me a bit.
When I think of Central Ave, especially in the area north of McDowell that I'm familiar with, I think it could use some more small businesses, especially now that the light rail is running. But right now the economy is crap so we'll probably see more happening if/when the economy gets back on track. Coffee shops, art galleries are nice but I'd imagine difficult to keep open right now.
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