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I have never seen a toll road that was worth a damn, every one I have ever been on is in poor repair and I have been on them in Texas, Oklahoma, and New Jersey. We do not need toll roads here, and if you do, why don't you just write a personal check to adot ? I have heard the stories saying that the tolls are to pay for the road, then they will go away, but for some reason they never do, now they have to pay tolls to maintain the roads, which are poorly maintained to start with. ADOT should be investgated and if there are issues found, they should be delt with, and new people put in place.
One thing I have noticed about ADOT is, when they need to do any work on a freeway lane, they shut the whole freeway down. When all we had was I-17, it was never shut down, including when it was repaved.
I have never seen a toll road that was worth a damn, every one I have ever been on is in poor repair and I have been on them in Texas, Oklahoma, and New Jersey. We do not need toll roads here, and if you do, why don't you just write a personal check to adot ? I have heard the stories saying that the tolls are to pay for the road, then they will go away, but for some reason they never do, now they have to pay tolls to maintain the roads, which are poorly maintained to start with. ADOT should be investgated and if there are issues found, they should be delt with, and new people put in place.
One thing I have noticed about ADOT is, when they need to do any work on a freeway lane, they shut the whole freeway down. When all we had was I-17, it was never shut down, including when it was repaved.
You haven't been to Florida, then. First, I note that road maintenance is more of a problem in areas with bad weather, so that's an issue they have to handle better. And, the revenues have to be handled properly in other ways.
I'm not advocating that we need as many of them as Florida has, but it is a way to get roads built and paid for by those who use them. Does it generate money beyond that? With 3-4 toll stations over a fairly short distance on the way in to Orlando airport, I would say yes....but it surely is easy to get around there, on some really very GOOD roads.
I have been in Florida, but was able to avoid toll roads. I just had to go from Tampa to Clearwater. I flew into Tampa on a 737 and out of Clearwater on a DC-3. Toll roads are a extra tax, on top of the gas tax we all ready pay to build and maintain roads.
I have been in Florida, but was able to avoid toll roads. I just had to go from Tampa to Clearwater. I flew into Tampa on a 737 and out of Clearwater on a DC-3. Toll roads are a extra tax, on top of the gas tax we all ready pay to build and maintain roads.
I'm quite aware that they are an "extra tax" above the gas tax (and sales tax) we ALREADY pay. Many who pay those taxes don't use the highways much. Unfortunately, the cost to build roads is going up about as fast, or faster, as the demand to build them. Money has to come from somewhere. At least we aren't paying 63 cents a gallon in gas tax already, like CA.
I'm quite aware that they are an "extra tax" above the gas tax (and sales tax) we ALREADY pay. Many who pay those taxes don't use the highways much. Unfortunately, the cost to build roads is going up about as fast, or faster, as the demand to build them. Money has to come from somewhere. At least we aren't paying 63 cents a gallon in gas tax already, like CA.
Everybody uses roads. Civilization is not possible without them. Your food, mail, that package from UPS, everything in your house, your computer, everything that is needed to support life travels on roads. The people who provide you services like your doctor, and the washing machine repair guy all travel on roads to get to their place of employment or to the point of service to you. That is why sales tax makes sense. Tax the consumption that relies upon roads. Everyone benefits - everyone pays.
Everybody uses roads. Civilization is not possible without them. Your food, mail, that package from UPS, everything in your house, your computer, everything that is needed to support life travels on roads. The people who provide you services like your doctor, and the washing machine repair guy all travel on roads to get to their place of employment or to the point of service to you. That is why sales tax makes sense. Tax the consumption that relies upon roads. Everyone benefits - everyone pays.
Don't get me wrong, I don't have a problem with sales taxes going to roads, just as gas taxes do. You are right that everyone needs them. But, if we are going to demand more and bigger and better roads, (both for residents and visitors) other ways to get them, including increased taxes on those who directly use the roads, need to be considered.
Don't get mad because you forgot to add relevant information.
I could never be mad at you. I was just going by the picture in the op's article. I'm not a big fan of driving nut to butt and am not in favour of putting off construction.
There is a Beardsly road improvement/extension in my neck of the woods that is supposed to be completed this year that I was really looking forward to that would save me 7-12mins by only adding a 1 mile stretch of road.
I'm no fan of ADOT, but there's a lot of oversimplification and exaggeration here. The implication that ADOT has already collected all tax revenues from Proposition 400 is misleading. Proposition 400 was a vote by the people of Maricopa County to increase their sales tax by .5% over a 20 year period with the revenues funding a mix of road projects, new bus lines, light rail extensions, etc. That means that the revenues come in over a 20-year period, not all at once up front.
I'm well aware of that. However, it doesn't make any difference if all of the revenue was collected, or merely one dime of it. The fact of the matter is that our tax money was already taken for these extra projects, regardless of the quantity of revenue thus far. ADOT promised us these additional freeway miles and widening projects ... even stating that this plan would be recession proof.
I'm not the one who is exaggerating. ADUHT has done enough exaggeration of how much revenue they would be able to collect for these projects, and then just a few years later claim that they are short of funds! The horrible part about this is it isn't the first time ADOT has let us down in this respect. They pulled the same stunt in the late '80s/early '90s during the last so called "economic downturn". As a result, we currently have a scaled back freeway system compared to what was promised in 1985. After the early '90s recession, the economy improved significantly, so do you think ADOT reinstated those freeways which they cancelled? Of course not. Sure seems funny that they are quick to delay, scale back, or nix projects during "economic slowdowns", but somehow can't reinstate them during the booming economic times!
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Originally Posted by silverbear
As the economy has slid into a deep recession, the tax revenues have fallen short of forecasts. If people are spending less, then that .5% tax is applied to a smaller pool of purchases. That's why projects of all types have to be scaled back or postponed.
First of all, while I'll admit that the economy isn't great, there was no "deep recession"! That's a lot of nonsense spewed by the national media and certain political groups. When restaurants, shops, hotels, etc. are bustling with people (as I've witnessed frequently in the last year), the economy isn't as bad as the doomsdayers are claiming! Furthermore, I strongly believe that too many people are using the slump as a poor excuse as to why things are being delayed or cancelled. ADOT has made enough excuses, and is a poor excuse for a transportation department!
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Originally Posted by silverbear
Maybe the forecasts were unrealistic and maybe ADOT has been wasteful. I'd probably say that both are correct at least to some extent.
Maybe???
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Originally Posted by Ponderosa
ADOT and the pay-as-you go tax plan is doing fine with the freeway program. The last thing we need is a bunch of greed-crazed "private sector" crooks gouging us with toll roads.
I'd rather have a privatized "pay as you go" user fee type of toll system than the current inept, mis managed, corrupt type of "pay as you go" tax system that ADUHT is obviously incapable of handling. It also seems a little odd how you're adamantly opposed to taxes funding light rail because not everyone uses it ... but at the same time, favor taxes for roads and public schools (which not everyone uses either). Don't knock privatization! Most things that are currently run and seriously bungled up by government agencies can and should be funded with private capital, including highways, rail, schools, etc.
The fact of the matter is that our tax money was already taken for these extra projects, regardless of the quantity of revenue thus far.
No, it wasn't. Sales tax can't be collected until sales occur. There are 16 more years left of Proposition 400's tax. You continue to use wording that suggests ADOT received 20 years of anticipated tax revenues up front and ran away with the money. In reality, the tax money comes in year-by-year as it collected.
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Originally Posted by Valley Native
First of all, while I'll admit that the economy isn't great, there was no "deep recession"! That's a lot of nonsense spewed by the national media and certain political groups. When restaurants, shops, hotels, etc. are bustling with people (as I've witnessed frequently in the last year), the economy isn't as bad as the doomsdayers are claiming! Furthermore, I strongly believe that too many people are using the slump as a poor excuse as to why things are being delayed or cancelled. ADOT has made enough excuses, and is a poor excuse for a transportation department!
In this post, as in others, you appear to be in denial about the state of the economy. What you see around town is only a collection of anecdotal observations and may be colored by your own strong opinions. It doesn't matter if a restaurant is full; if customers are ordering less expensive entrees or if the restaurant has cut prices to retain customers, then the state collects less sales tax. Comparing September 2009 to September 2008, sales tax collections were down 15% statewide. That's severe.
No, it wasn't. Sales tax can't be collected until sales occur. There are 16 more years left of Proposition 400's tax. You continue to use wording that suggests ADOT received 20 years of anticipated tax revenues up front and ran away with the money. In reality, the tax money comes in year-by-year as it collected.
In this post, as in others, you appear to be in denial about the state of the economy. What you see around town is only a collection of anecdotal observations and may be colored by your own strong opinions. It doesn't matter if a restaurant is full; if customers are ordering less expensive entrees or if the restaurant has cut prices to retain customers, then the state collects less sales tax. Comparing September 2009 to September 2008, sales tax collections were down 15% statewide. That's severe.
OK, first of all, let's just assume that you're right about the economy being in a deep recession. Don't you think that ADOT should have planned accordingly for such downfalls? You don't plan budgets based specifically on a strong economy. That was their problem back in the '80s: they projected their revenue collection estimates from the half cent tax based on the fact that we were in a strong economic period at that time. Recessions and bear markets DO happen from time to time, and they need to be accounted for! You would think that ADOT would have learned its lesson from that mishap (and the 1991 audit revealing that funds were grossly mis managed). But what can you expect? ADOT is corrupt, and will apparently never change since it's not their money they are squandering.
Second, assuming that cutbacks in road projects are necessary during "deep recessions", let's take the last "deep recession" of the early '90s into consideration. ADOT claimed at that time they were out of money to complete the 231 miles of freeways that was promised in the 1985 vote. They completely axed the Paradise Freeway, South Mountain Freeway, and the Grand Expressway as a result. Shortly after that recession, the economy rebounded very nicely. In fact, there were a few times when the state actually experiened a budget surplus. So why couldn't ADOT have reinstated those nixed freeway projects, and sped up construction on the others, being that extra revenue was pouring in???
That's what I meant when I stated that people are using the state of the economy as a scapegoat. During these slumps, they make all kinds of excuses as to why these projects can't materialize as promised ... but when things get better, it sure seems peculiar how very little improves with these government agencies. It's the same old tired out excuses with them! The only thing I can be thankful for is that I'm glad I voted NO on Proposition 400. I saw through ADOT's lies and misconceptions (recalling their many other broken promises in the past) ... plus, I was leary about expanding light rail even before the starter line was completed.
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I was just going by the picture in the op's article. I'm not a big fan of driving nut to butt and am not in favour of putting off construction. 
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