ADOT postpones anticipated new freeways (AGAIN)! (Phoenix: credit, house, neighborhoods)

[Magnum Mike]

The one thing I'd like to know is, why do they always spend years working on a project, then 8-10 years later, they're redoing something that should have been done in the first place? Examples are the US 60. How many widening projects did they have for it in the last 12 years? Another example is the I-17 and SR-101 interchanges. It wasn't too long ago they opened those interchanges and now they got lanes closed and causing inconveniences to commuters. The I-17 widening project from Deer Valley Road to Anthem, it seems like that project has been going on for a while now, and it doesn't look like they're going to finish it soon, and as always, they'll probably be doing the same thing 8-10 years from now.

[joninaz]

Originally Posted by Magnum Mike

The one thing I'd like to know is, why do they always spend years working on a project, then 8-10 years later, they're redoing something that should have been done in the first place? Examples are the US 60. How many widening projects did they have for it in the last 12 years? Another example is the I-17 and SR-101 interchanges. It wasn't too long ago they opened those interchanges and now they got lanes closed and causing inconveniences to commuters. The I-17 widening project from Deer Valley Road to Anthem, it seems like that project has been going on for a while now, and it doesn't look like they're going to finish it soon, and as always, they'll probably be doing the same thing 8-10 years from now.

I can't recall the 101 between Scottsdale and Chandler ever "not" being under construction. It's fairly new (10 years?) in terms of freeways and is constantly being redeveloped. Although it's my stomping ground, I'd much rather they spend those funds expanding the I-10 west of town. It's a nightmarish clash of California, cross-country and new burb traffic on one undersized stretch that is always clogged.

[mysticaltyger]

I understand the anger and frustration at government incompetence and waste. But has anyone here thought about what a waste of money freeways are in general. When will AZ build some mass transit so people don't have to get in their cars for everything???? Ubiquitous suburban sprawl is finally going by the wayside in some metro areas in favor of more compact, transit oriented development. Is AZ joining in this trend?

Take it from someone in California.....there is no such thing as enough freeways or freeway lanes. The more you build, the more you encourage people to live far away from their jobs, and the more traffic you will get. It's a perpetual vicious cycle.

[Java Jolt]

This is pretty upsetting and worrysome. Lots of us who live in the west valley were looking forward to these expanded freeways, a wider I-10, the 801 Loop, and so on to relieve all the traffic snarls.

I think the recession is playing a big part in this, but I also think the state of Arizona shares some of the blame too.

We never have enough money for improving transportation options, improving education, or helping people, but we sure can find the money for all the radar speed cams and Joe Arpaio's racial profiling type of sweeps.

[pbenjamin]

It bothers me that we use sales tax money to build these outlying roads to begin with, although that appears to be what people voted for. The pattern in the Valley is that developers build these leapfrog developments, like the never-ending crawl of people out I-10 towards California, then people actually move to these outposts, then there is a hue and cry for freeway capacity to get them into town (or to some other location in BFE). The developers who build these "communities" and profit from them should be compelled to pay for transportation requirements. The people who had the foresight to live where there already are roads to get them where they are going should not have to pay for this poor planning.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Magnum Mike

The one thing I'd like to know is, why do they always spend years working on a project, then 8-10 years later, they're redoing something that should have been done in the first place? Examples are the US 60. How many widening projects did they have for it in the last 12 years? Another example is the I-17 and SR-101 interchanges. It wasn't too long ago they opened those interchanges and now they got lanes closed and causing inconveniences to commuters. The I-17 widening project from Deer Valley Road to Anthem, it seems like that project has been going on for a while now, and it doesn't look like they're going to finish it soon, and as always, they'll probably be doing the same thing 8-10 years from now.

Again, it's ADOT's poor planning when they built the freeways initially. The newer freeways (after 1985) contained only three lanes in each direction when they were brand new. Then, just a few years later, they went back and tore up the freeways again to add an extra lane or two (or to lay rubberized asphalt). They claimed that it was too costly to do all of this at the time of initial construction ... which really makes no sense because it costs them MORE money when they have to redo the roads, and that is due to continuing escalation in construction costs.

Originally Posted by pbenjamin

It bothers me that we use sales tax money to build these outlying roads to begin with, although that appears to be what people voted for. The pattern in the Valley is that developers build these leapfrog developments, like the never-ending crawl of people out I-10 towards California, then people actually move to these outposts, then there is a hue and cry for freeway capacity to get them into town (or to some other location in BFE). The developers who build these "communities" and profit from them should be compelled to pay for transportation requirements. The people who had the foresight to live where there already are roads to get them where they are going should not have to pay for this poor planning.

While I generally agree with what you're saying, please keep in mind that whenever transportation projects go to a public vote, if the majority approves of more funding, then public funds MUST be allocated for these projects. This goes for freeways, light rail, or anything related to transportation.

Since it's obvious that ADOT has defied the public more than once, I ceratinly hope the voting populace has learned its lesson not to give this incompetent agency any more tax money! We really need to move toward toll roads anyway. If the new freeways (such as those planned for the far west Valley) should happen to go to a toll system, the ones who enjoy living on the fringes in far flung exurbia would be forced to pay for the new freeways through user fees. Those who don't drive on them wouldn't pay anything.

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

We really need to move toward toll roads anyway. If the new freeways (such as those planned for the far west Valley) should happen to go to a toll system, the ones who enjoy living on the fringes in far flung exurbia would be forced to pay for the new freeways through user fees. Those who don't drive on them wouldn't pay anything.

I agree here slightly. I think we should have those new freeways become toll roads because all that BFE, exurbia development is absurd. I think ADOT isn't as bad an agency as you believe, but they could be managed better. A lot of ADOT projects have come under budget and are done ahead of schedule.

I have lots of family out in the exurbs who'd have to pay the toll and I'd pay when I'd visit so its not like I have no connnection to people who wouldn't be affected by paying user fees. I could also use it against them, LOL, in such a way: "Not only did I have to drive half way to East L.A. to see you, but I had to PAY to drive on a stinking toll road! Remember my bday is in December and I don't accept doubled up gifts!" LOL, j/k

[silverbear]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

OK, first of all, let's just assume that you're right about the economy being in a deep recession. Don't you think that ADOT should have planned accordingly for such downfalls? You don't plan budgets based specifically on a strong economy. That was their problem back in the '80s: they projected their revenue collection estimates from the half cent tax based on the fact that we were in a strong economic period at that time. Recessions and bear markets DO happen from time to time, and they need to be accounted for! You would think that ADOT would have learned its lesson from that mishap (and the 1991 audit revealing that funds were grossly mis managed). But what can you expect? ADOT is corrupt, and will apparently never change since it's not their money they are squandering.

Second, assuming that cutbacks in road projects are necessary during "deep recessions", let's take the last "deep recession" of the early '90s into consideration. ADOT claimed at that time they were out of money to complete the 231 miles of freeways that was promised in the 1985 vote. They completely axed the Paradise Freeway, South Mountain Freeway, and the Grand Expressway as a result. Shortly after that recession, the economy rebounded very nicely. In fact, there were a few times when the state actually experiened a budget surplus. So why couldn't ADOT have reinstated those nixed freeway projects, and sped up construction on the others, being that extra revenue was pouring in???

That's what I meant when I stated that people are using the state of the economy as a scapegoat. During these slumps, they make all kinds of excuses as to why these projects can't materialize as promised ... but when things get better, it sure seems peculiar how very little improves with these government agencies. It's the same old tired out excuses with them! The only thing I can be thankful for is that I'm glad I voted NO on Proposition 400. I saw through ADOT's lies and misconceptions (recalling their many other broken promises in the past) ... plus, I was leary about expanding light rail even before the starter line was completed.

You appear to have changed your argument, but thankfully you've changed it to something closer to fact. The issue is not that ADOT (or MAG, the agency that actually prioritizes transportation projects) received a huge grant of money and squandered it. Instead, the issue is one of accuracy in forecasting. I agree that it often hasn't been accurate. Maybe that can be improved, or maybe it's inevitable because plans have to be optimistic to sell transportation taxes to voters.

Originally Posted by Magnum Mike

The one thing I'd like to know is, why do they always spend years working on a project, then 8-10 years later, they're redoing something that should have been done in the first place? Examples are the US 60. How many widening projects did they have for it in the last 12 years? Another example is the I-17 and SR-101 interchanges. It wasn't too long ago they opened those interchanges and now they got lanes closed and causing inconveniences to commuters. The I-17 widening project from Deer Valley Road to Anthem, it seems like that project has been going on for a while now, and it doesn't look like they're going to finish it soon, and as always, they'll probably be doing the same thing 8-10 years from now.

The alternative would be to build the freeway to maximum width up front. That would mean a much larger investment in the beginning. With our pay-as-you-go funding, I don't know if that would be possible.

Originally Posted by mysticaltyger

I understand the anger and frustration at government incompetence and waste. But has anyone here thought about what a waste of money freeways are in general. When will AZ build some mass transit so people don't have to get in their cars for everything???? Ubiquitous suburban sprawl is finally going by the wayside in some metro areas in favor of more compact, transit oriented development. Is AZ joining in this trend?

Take it from someone in California.....there is no such thing as enough freeways or freeway lanes. The more you build, the more you encourage people to live far away from their jobs, and the more traffic you will get. It's a perpetual vicious cycle.

Phoenix opened its first light rail line almost a year ago. It's 20 miles along -- one of the most ambitious rail startups in history -- and has drawn riders well in excess of forecasts (even though some in this thread still try to deny its success). In addition, there has been a huge net increase in bus service over the past decade. In two separate elections in 2000 and 2004, Phoenicians showed themselves ready to support improved public transportation.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Phoenix opened its first light rail line almost a year ago. It's 20 miles along -- one of the most ambitious rail startups in history -- and has drawn riders well in excess of forecasts (even though some in this thread still try to deny its success). In addition, there has been a huge net increase in bus service over the past decade. In two separate elections in 2000 and 2004, Phoenicians showed themselves ready to support improved public transportation.

That's good to hear. I knew Phoenix had started a light rail line and I read that ridership has been good. But let's face it, 20 miles of track in a huge metro area like Phoenix is almost nothing.

I'm glad they improved the bus service. That is probably the cheapest and fastest way to improve mass transit in the short run.

It sounds like Phoenix is slowly but surely moving away from the suburban sprawl mode of development. That's a good thing. Unfortunately, it will take a decade or more before the results really show.

[tijlover]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

The last thing we need is a bunch of greed-crazed "private sector" crooks gouging us with toll roads.

The very humble bus riders, who will never own a car by choice or no choice,
would rephrase that to read: The very best thing we need is a bunch of greed-crazed "private sector" crooks gouging us with toll roads.

It's ironic, those with such a hatred of socialism, stop complaining about socialism the minute they turn onto a exit ramp to a socialistic freeway.

Let those that use them, should pay for that luxury. And dearly.