ADOT postpones anticipated new freeways (AGAIN)! (Phoenix, Chandler: taxi, taxes, costs)

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by observer53

I'm quite aware that they are an "extra tax" above the gas tax (and sales tax) we ALREADY pay. Many who pay those taxes don't use the highways much. Unfortunately, the cost to build roads is going up about as fast, or faster, as the demand to build them. Money has to come from somewhere. At least we aren't paying 63 cents a gallon in gas tax already, like CA.

I am a Republican who lives in California and am generally anti tax. But a higher gas tax is one thing I'm in favor of. It encourages people to drive more efficient cars and encourages people to live closer to work and to use mass transit (which is also safer). Less driving and more efficient cars mean less of our money going to unstable and hostile governments like Venezuela and Iran, not to mention less repair and maintenance needed for the roads because of less driving. Less oil consumption is good for our trade deficit, since most of our oil is imported. It also means fewer auto accidents and resultant deaths as well as less air pollution. A reduction in those two problems would spill over to help slow down the growth in health care costs.

We recently raised our sales tax by 1% here (It's 9.25% in my county and is above 9% in most California counties. Sheesh!). I'd much rather they'd have jacked up the gas tax and kept the sales tax the same.

In my ideal world we would raise gas taxes and reduce the income tax to offset it. Why encourage driving while penalizing people for working????

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by tijlover

The very humble bus riders, who will never own a car by choice or no choice,
would rephrase that to read: The very best thing we need is a bunch of greed-crazed "private sector" crooks gouging us with toll roads.

It's ironic, those with such a hatred of socialism, stop complaining about socialism the minute they turn onto a exit ramp to a socialistic freeway.

Let those that use them, should pay for that luxury. And dearly.

What one must remember is that we are neither a purely capitalistic society NOR a purely democratic one. The founders actually interjected very socialistic ideas into the constitution as a means of creating a sustainable society in which the common goal was for the creation of civility and equality where everyone contributed.

Paying taxes was a way of ensuring public infrastructure and security was in place and this is true to today. While the private sector can and should get involved in some infrastructure and security goals of the nation, we as a society are responsible for such common goods; just like the military, police, and so on...

[roundball]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

, we as a society are responsible for such common goods; just like the military, police, and so on...

To many people forget this part. If my house catches on fire I don't want to have to wait for the private fire dept. 40 miles away that will only respond to usaa or state farm.

It was tried, mostly in the South, and failed.

[Java Jolt]

Originally Posted by roundball

To many people forget this part. If my house catches on fire I don't want to have to wait for the private fire dept. 40 miles away that will only respond to usaa or state farm.

It was tried, mostly in the South, and failed.

Nicely written, thank you.

While I certainly agree with what the op and others on this thread are saying about ADOT and the Arizona government as a whole, the fact is we can't completely stop paying taxes and whisk everything to some private organization.

Yes the government messes things up a lot but where's the evidence that private organizations do any better?

Public services are there for the public good, not everything is for a profit.

[rambrush]

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

Nicely written, thank you.

While I certainly agree with what the op and others on this thread are saying about ADOT and the Arizona government as a whole, the fact is we can't completely stop paying taxes and whisk everything to some private organization.

Yes the government messes things up a lot but where's the evidence that private organizations do any better?

Public services are there for the public good, not everything is for a profit.

Sounds like a Rural/Metro private fire operation if a station was actually 40 miles away. But I would highly doubt there stations are that remote anymore.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

What one must remember is that we are neither a purely capitalistic society NOR a purely democratic one. The founders actually interjected very socialistic ideas into the constitution as a means of creating a sustainable society in which the common goal was for the creation of civility and equality where everyone contributed.

Originally Posted by roundball

To many people forget this part. If my house catches on fire I don't want to have to wait for the private fire dept. 40 miles away that will only respond to usaa or state farm.

It was tried, mostly in the South, and failed.

Originally Posted by Java Jolt

While I certainly agree with what the op and others on this thread are saying about ADOT and the Arizona government as a whole, the fact is we can't completely stop paying taxes and whisk everything to some private organization.

Yes the government messes things up a lot but where's the evidence that private organizations do any better?

Public services are there for the public good, not everything is for a profit.

The three of you need to understand something: nowhere in the United States Constitution does it say anything about public services funded through tax dollars as being rights. While our founding fathers envisioned SOME government involvement for the "public good", their main focus was protecting our nation from excessive government interference. Government should really only be involved in securing our borders (military), bringing lawbreakers to justice (police/court system), and defending the Constitution.

Government certainly messes things up too much ... and the problem is that we as taxpayers are always stuck paying the bill for their incompetence. While the private sector certainly isn't perfect, I truly believe that it can do a better job overall than some bureaucratic government agency. Furthermore, I highly favor more freeways (and wider ones at that), better streets, effective mass transit, quality schools, libraries, etc. The question again is: who should pay for them? Not everybody uses these amenities, so that's why privatization and imposing user fees on those who do use these things works much better in the long run. It's certainly worth a try ... and would be a refreshing change from ADOT and their constant lame excuses/delays/screw ups!

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

The three of you need to understand something: nowhere in the United States Constitution does it say anything about public services funded through tax dollars as being rights. While our founding fathers envisioned SOME government involvement for the "public good", their main focus was protecting our nation from excessive government interference. Government should really only be involved in securing our borders (military), bringing lawbreakers to justice (police/court system), and defending the Constitution.

Government certainly messes things up too much ... and the problem is that we as taxpayers are always stuck paying the bill for their incompetence. While the private sector certainly isn't perfect, I truly believe that it can do a better job overall than some bureaucratic government agency. Furthermore, I highly favor more freeways (and wider ones at that), better streets, effective mass transit, quality schools, libraries, etc. The question again is: who should pay for them? Not everybody uses these amenities, so that's why privatization and imposing user fees on those who do use these things works much better in the long run. It's certainly worth a try ... and would be a refreshing change from ADOT and their constant lame excuses/delays/screw ups!

Actually , the 16th Amendment covers taxation and the use of collected taxes. Although much of the taxation and usage of taxes are "implied," there are no set rules for social services that can be offered by government. Furthermore, state constitutions also follow this mold and define uses of tax collection within their borders. But from the first utterances of our nation's independence, infrastructure (roads, railroads, communications lines, etc) and public education have been seen as a security issue for our nation. The security of our future and of our future leaders (children) was one issue addressed at the earliest possible moment for many federal and state agencies.

While I don't share your enthusiasm for privatization of many public services, I can see them useful in more private schools and toll roads. I am for allowing parent's to use some form of tax credit for use at a private school. While we all might not directly use all services offered, that doesn't mean we are not impacted by those services being available. Think commerce, mobility, common good (education is a common good), etc. Even if you don't have children in school you are impacted by the education of the public and therefore have or should have an interest in education.

[homlish560]

I hope this isn't getting too much off topic but I'm not surprised at all with this cancelation of Freeway construction. I used to think Caltrans was bad but I think Arizona probably has the worst Dept. of Transportation in the entire country!!!!!!

Forget about getting somewhere on time if there's an Accident because they shut down the entire Highway. Not sure if that's ADOT or the Highway Patrol - either way it's the state behaving like morons.

Worst of all they don't even turn on the lights sometimes at night. Some sections of the Freeways in the middle of the City can be pitch-black.

Last of all---------
What is it with new Freeways only being 3 or 4 lanes with a dirt median??????? They have to come back and add more lanes anyway in another few years so why not just get it all done up front???????

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by homlish560

I hope this isn't getting too much off topic but I'm not surprised at all with this cancelation of Freeway construction. I used to think Caltrans was bad but I think Arizona probably has the worst Dept. of Transportation in the entire country!!!!!!

Forget about getting somewhere on time if there's an Accident because they shut down the entire Highway. Not sure if that's ADOT or the Highway Patrol - either way it's the state behaving like morons.

Worst of all they don't even turn on the lights sometimes at night. Some sections of the Freeways in the middle of the City can be pitch-black.

Last of all---------
What is it with new Freeways only being 3 or 4 lanes with a dirt median??????? They have to come back and add more lanes anyway in another few years so why not just get it all done up front???????

I think they add lanes to freeways at a later time because it is more cost effective and looks better on paper. I know L.A. and Cali have mega freeways with 20 lanes, but I do not want that in Phoenix EVER. It is a big scar through the urban landscape and it makes much of California look gray and ugly. They bulldozed a huge historic area in central Phoenix in order to build I-10 and only the tunnel saved some character of the neighborhoods.

As for ADOT building a 3-4 lane freeway first, I think the process involves some accounting in which funds have to be shared across the entire transportation system; therefore, ADOT cannot build L.A. style monstrosities! Thank goodness.

[homlish560]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

I think they add lanes to freeways at a later time because it is more cost effective and looks better on paper. I know L.A. and Cali have mega freeways with 20 lanes, but I do not want that in Phoenix EVER. It is a big scar through the urban landscape and it makes much of California look gray and ugly. They bulldozed a huge historic area in central Phoenix in order to build I-10 and only the tunnel saved some character of the neighborhoods.

As for ADOT building a 3-4 lane freeway first, I think the process involves some accounting in which funds have to be shared across the entire transportation system; therefore, ADOT cannot build L.A. style monstrosities! Thank goodness.

Hey, I know whatchya mean about those LA-style mega-Freeways. They're super wide but still clogged during peak driving times. That's 1 of the big reasons why I couldn't wait to get out of Socal - the traffic is horrible even on all the wide Freeways!!!!!!!

I just think ADOT or whatever they're called does a pi$$-poor job of traffic maintainance. They close several lanes of a Freeway when they're working but you never see anyone working - maybe a few dudes standing around kicking dirt around or shooting the breeze.

Forget about accidents. I was on the I-17 one time and the entire Highway was shut down for 2 or 3 hours!!!!!!!! No roads to detour on - just sit still on the Freeway and waste time.