Is Maricopa county TOO big? (Phoenix, Mesa: fit in, apartment, foreclosures)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Furthermore why the hell is it even called Maricopa County? Maybe Phoenix County would make more sense considering the fact that Maricopa is in Pinal County
I don't see any substantial benefit to splitting the county NOW. I don't think the management philosophy of what would still be two large urban counties would be substantially different, it wouldn't change the sprawl, and each would have to support a large infrastructure with multiple separate departments with half the tax base. Sure, it would be more convenient for people to drive to a county office that didn't already have multiple locations (and a lot of county business can be done online, besides) Other than that, I don't see a huge benefit.
[orphaned part of post [/mod]
Last edited by SouthernBelleInUtah; 12-09-2009 at 11:32 PM..
I am not sure...how long have these county borders been in existence? Probably back when they were mapped out, there was less of a population base especially in Phoenix, so they took in more rural areas combining with a city to cut expenses of too much government all doing what they wanted? By splitting the county, especially within the city you divide the infrastructure that is already in place and put more of a burden on state funds to subsidize the new infrastructure, burdens on taxpayers to start a new county?
I am not sure...how long have these county borders been in existence? Probably back when they were mapped out, there was less of a population base especially in Phoenix, so they took in more rural areas combining with a city to cut expenses of too much government all doing what they wanted? By splitting the county, especially within the city you divide the infrastructure that is already in place and put more of a burden on state funds to subsidize the new infrastructure, burdens on taxpayers to start a new county?
Maricopa County split from Yavapai County in 1871 and the County seat moved to Phoenix. Before the county seat, which included what is now Maricopa, Prescott was the state capital and county seat.
It was split off at the request of Phoenician founders and elite when the Salt River Valley (Valley of the Sun) was seen as an area of great opportunity. I think what has been missed in this thread, which could have and still can be great discussion is not that the county is run bad and thus the county has enabled sprawl, but that the cities and state much change the way they do business. [mpd] personal attack [/mod]
We've noted that city tax codes and reliance on sales tax as a revenue stream has allowed uncontrolled sprawl. We've also pointed out that the sprawl in Phoenix isn't unique, or even the worst in the nation, but it is new and therefore garners much attention for the rest of that nation because of the modernity of the issue here and its blatantly obvious pattern because the region is large, mostly flat within the valley, and not hidden underneath a canopy of foliage much like the rest of the nation.
So, the OP asked for issues that can be raised to change "Phoenix." One would be to not buy out in the furthest reaches which can be accomplished without living in poor conditions. Without mentioning that no city in America is immune to the same issues, try living in central Boston where the average home is nearly $500,000, or Seattle ($450,000), etc and not be in the same predicament. Could you reasonably live in the urban areas of those cities and turn your back on the suburban sprawl for a lower COL?
But let's talk about the taxes that would require intense infrastructure in the current ring of development. We'd have to raise taxes, transit taxes, fees, and stop funding freeways meaning that life in the suburbs wouldn't be so subsidized and "cheap" compared to the city. We'd have to vote away tax incentives cities give to attract Wal-Mart to Carefree HWY or to Riggs Rd...we'd have to ensure that the cities charged impact fees to any business that wanted to build and charge more for those wanting to do so out further from the current infrastructure and population base...
Last edited by SouthernBelleInUtah; 12-09-2009 at 11:34 PM..
[mnod] orphaned quote [/mod] I think we agree on WAY more than actually lets on this forum whether you or I like it in metro Phoenix or not...
To begin; I think the issue has been whether this should be a county discussion at all or one that deals with the cities individually and state taxation and reliance on sales tax. That was actually stated multiple times and by more than just myself. The title of your thread probably doesn't aid in that discussion either as it seems to want to ask something completely different before the real issue was revealed that you wanted to bring up.
Moderator cut: orphaned quote
No one said Phoenix did anything wrong, again we listed that the city has enabled taxes and business "friendly" tax breaks and the like to entice those businesses to move out to the fringes. If you read the posts by me and ponderosa, you'll notice this was brought up. The city did allow the ring to extend out; this is what was brought up. We told you "no, it wasn't the county it was the city(ies)!"
Because of that other cities then took the lead and did what Phoenix, Scottsdale, Glendale, and Mesa did before. There is the issue that Phoenix, Glendale, and Tempe (by design and land trapped) have started doing the exact opposite recently; focus on the core. Yet there are varying market forces that stop this to some extend and in turn the economy has stopped the suburban focus yet again; the free market, land owners, and yes, those that decide to buy and spend money out on the fringe. Bottom line is that no one forced the hand of those that live in the nether regions to buy there and that IS part of the problem; the consumer. To completely ignore that is ridiculous and shortsighted and would do nothing to further this conversation.
Moderator cut: orphaned quote
I said buy less expensive clothing, buy less cars or not own one at all to live in a central location (something they do in urban regions), have less children or hold off until financial capable of doing so (a huge economic impact and effects a huge tenant of economics; Cēterīs paribus in which things take on a whole different scale: This is rue for cars, children, a home's square footage, educational attainment, owning less material goods, etc). The city has future lines planned and those roots are in existence and commuter rail has been at the forefront of those conversations.
Moderator cut: orpahned
Last edited by SouthernBelleInUtah; 12-09-2009 at 11:36 PM..
A lot of cities have had down-turns to their growth and lost their base to the 'burbs.' I am not sure if it was downside in the economy, but young professionals, probably more singles or couples without children made a turn to the 'downtown' areas to live where they were close to work, shopping, night life, etc. Minneapolis/St. Paul was one of those cities. They revamped some of the older manufacturing buildings into condos, lofts and they came. Part of the problem or solution, not sure, was with the freeway system in place and companies moving in off the freeway, thus into the burbs they kind of built a new city center in the suburb they were in, thus the sprawl...but downtown Mpls/St. Paul is still more or less the hub. Does Phoenix have a type of urban central city area to draw in the younger people or is it all separate little areas with no center per se...I have to admit I have not been in Phoenix in about 10 years or so and when I was it was just at the airport on the way out of town...
What if, hypothetically speaking, Phoenix diagrammed a network of rail lines ahead of time. And lets say they don't even have the money or the means to build them right now but they have a hard diagram of where the transit lines will be.
With such a plan, builders proposing a subdivision would KNOW up front they have to build their neighborhood around this rail line. Phoenix could even demand that the developer is responsible for creating a small station that ties into the feel of the community and landscaping the corridor in the same fashion they do with retention basins. Maybe these type of neighborhoods have to be a little more expensive to accommodate, or maybe the HOA dues would have to include some of the expenses associated with the rail line rather than just paying a bunch of NAZI's to enforce exterior color schemes. In this case we would now have development that ties the "nether regions" to the core.
My point on the counties is that if we had another neighboring county pitching an idea that they came up with for a great transit corridor, they might have tried to encourage Maricopa to meet them at the border with a matching rail line corridor for continuity, we could have been exposed to fresh thinking from another county instead of having one stale think tank for an area that is more populated than 24 other states.
I would gladly agree to pay more for that type of development before I would plant myself in some master plan in the middle of nowhere. But such options did not exist because it wasn't developed that way. My 2 options were to pick from the nether regions or go for a 50 year old fixer upper home with half the space at double the cost. I picked unwillingly from those 2 options, and now you have an example of someone that can't wait to leave instead of someone who thinks the city is progressive and forward thinking.
I would be willing to pay top dollar for something that works and that I appreciate, and so would alot of people, but Phoenix has developed in a way that has attracted a bargain basement crowd looking for someplace cheap. Thats my opinion of why this place crashed and burned more than anywhere else, and its also my opinion it was entirely preventable if growth was managed with intelligence.
Atlanta which nearly sprawl 75-100 miles from the city center compared to 40 miles for Phoenix is encircled by endless counties same for Houston, Dallas, Seattle, Los Angeles, and Minneapolis.
What's interesting, since you mentioned Minneapolis, is that they're pretty much counting St. Cloud as part of the MSP metro area. I think it's waaayyy too far away to be considered part of it, but hey, whatever. Let's put it this way - it's just a little farther than Eloy to Phoenix.
The whole reason the Minneapolis area is sort of sprawling to begin with is that you have to remember that it's called the Twin Cities area. Minneapolis/St. Paul. Two major cities about 10 miles apart. So you have two cities that you can build suburbs and exburbs around.
So, the Phoenix area isn't all THAT bad when it comes to sprawl. What makes it seem bad is that there just doesn't seem to be as many loops and highways. In Phoenix, you have 10, 17, 101, 202, 303, 51, and 60 as major highways.
In the Minneapolis area, you have 35, 35w, 35e, 94, 694, 494, 394, 100, 101, 169, and more.
It's just a mess, and allows for the sprawl. At least it's a "cleaner" feel with how the way the highways and freeways run. Just look at the Phoenix area in google maps, and look at the Minneapolis area in google maps.
As said before there are highs and lows all over the country and people moving from one center to another whether it is urban or suburban as the trends go or with how they prefer to live. If you want the core of the city, you need to live there...if you want more house you have to drive further to get to activities of the core. I choose to live outside the city itself, whether it be Phoenix or Casa Grande, as we are on the outside of the city limits, less than 10 miles to town here, less than an hour to Phoenix, less than an hour to Tucson. If I had rail transporation would I take it? Probably not or it would be very limited if more cost effective than driving, as I don't work there. So, is for example connecting Pinal County and Maricopa worthwhile, or would it bring more people from the city moving out to pay less than they are maybe paying in Phoenix or closer, which would cost a lot and take a chance on losing the tax base. Other larger cities are putting in rail systems (that don't already have them) and setting up depots in suburbs, which could work within Maricopa itself or 'Phoenix' to ease and/or speed up transit times, or take off stress from driving for the individual and environment? Would people use it in off-peak times to make it cost effective to operate?
What's interesting, since you mentioned Minneapolis, is that they're pretty much counting St. Cloud as part of the MSP metro area. I think it's waaayyy too far away to be considered part of it, but hey, whatever. Let's put it this way - it's just a little farther than Eloy to Phoenix.
The whole reason the Minneapolis area is sort of sprawling to begin with is that you have to remember that it's called the Twin Cities area. Minneapolis/St. Paul. Two major cities about 10 miles apart. So you have two cities that you can build suburbs and exburbs around.
So, the Phoenix area isn't all THAT bad when it comes to sprawl. What makes it seem bad is that there just doesn't seem to be as many loops and highways. In Phoenix, you have 10, 17, 101, 202, 303, 51, and 60 as major highways.
In the Minneapolis area, you have 35, 35w, 35e, 94, 694, 494, 394, 100, 101, 169, and more.
It's just a mess, and allows for the sprawl. At least it's a "cleaner" feel with how the way the highways and freeways run. Just look at the Phoenix area in google maps, and look at the Minneapolis area in google maps.
Moderator cut: off topic ... Sprawl happens everywhere you have a city...this past summer when I drove through Utah and Salt Lake from at least Ogden down, it was total sprawl and never again if I can help it... I think the question or at least mine, is how strong is the cities center core? Does Phoenix have one, or does everyone stay in their little burb?
Last edited by SouthernBelleInUtah; 12-09-2009 at 11:51 PM..
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
